[bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
- From: "Jana Jackson" <jana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 21:40:09 -0500
Hi, Evan and everyone! As I recall from past conversations with Marissa,
the volunteer coordinator who worked with Bookshare for a while, as well as
Jesse before her, this is one of those things that is a little subjective.
Honestly, I'm not sure why such a big deal has been made of this today,
except that I just think some of the comments have caused a lot of
unintentional confusion. <Smile>
In short, Evan, your approach to em-dashes seems to be a good one. I would
be interested in the comments of Bookshare users with other disabilities
besides blindness on this, as well as other formatting issues. In the past,
such requests have not resulted in much input on either this list or the
Bookshare list. This, along with the issues of formatting paragraphs and
quotes, is largely subjective... Although, of course, we do need some way of
differentiating those for the sake of navigation. But back to your concern,
it seems that the tip on Jake's site is correct, and as you said, it
shouldn't affect any Bookshare user in a negative way. Gerald will be back
in a few days, and I'm sure that he will correct me if I'm wrong.
Meanwhile, if Jake hasn't already done so, I will send a quick note to
Gustavo concerning this subject. Take care!
Jana
----- Original Message -----
From: Evan Reese
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 8:46 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
I think I understand what you are saying. But I have two problems with
it.
First, I, and others here, are scanning and validating books now, for
people to read now as well as in the future. As I have said, I can
certainly produce a document with the m dashes intact by doing nothing, as
my OB seems to recognize them pretty well. However, it rankles that I
should send up something to Bookshare that will be read by other Braille
readers that looks shoddy when it could look the way it should with a simple
replacement, especially since the only reason I have heard for not doing it
is that it might somehow cause some problem for some possible future
upgrade. But that doesn't make sense to me, see below.
Secondly, what is so complicated about replacing a double dash in an rtf
file with this possible dot 3 dots 3-6 dot 3 combination, or any other dot
configuration for that matter, as well as replacing the m dash with this dot
combination if this new Braille translation standard should ever come to
fruition. There are many examples in Braille of multiple sets of characters
being translated into the same dot combination. Examples include the words
by and was, the double letters cc and the con sign, d d and dis, the com
sign and the hyphen. I don't propose that this is an exhaustive list, those
are just the ones I thought up off the top of my head. I think that the
point is made that the Braille translator can translate different character
sets into the same dot configuration. So if this translation Nirvana ever
comes about, then the Braille translator can translate a double dash into
this new dot configuration just as easily as it can an m dash. Are all the
past submissions in Bookshare's catalogue going to be translated into this
new standard, or only books submitted after this standard is incorporated
into the Braille translation software? If so, then it should still be able
to translate double dashes into any desired dot configuration as well as the
m dash character. If not, then they are not going to be retranslated, so it
is pointless to not try to make them the best quality as possible now.
Meanwhile, in the present, Braille readers get what should appear in the
book they want to read now.
Also, I haven't heard any reason why other readers should have a problem
with it. Does this affect Daisy navigation somehow? As for people reading
a screen: They will see a slightly longer m dash than normal. If what
Cindy says is true, then the hyphen and the m dash can be hard to tell apart
even with good sight, so I doubt that a double hyphen would look very much
out of place, just slightly longer than an m dash.
So I respectfully disagree with your position.
----- Original Message -----
From: Pratik patel
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 3:26 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
Evan,
I'm sorry if I'm miscommunicating. as it stands, the file that you
submit and/or validate is the same file that is used to generate DAISY and
braille by Bookshare. So what you submit is how it will appear to both
types of users, those who use DAISY and those who use Braille. Your
changes, whether they appear in your submission or in your final, validated
product, will be reflected in both Braille and DAISY. What I am suggesting
is that you refrain from making changes in one product that are especially
designed to consider only one format, (braille, in this case). The goal is
to ensure that we preserve the original as much as possible. Think of it
this way:
Right now, we all know and expect Grade 2 braille files from Bookshare.
Imagine a few years down the road the Braille Authority of North America
(BANA) decides to finish playing politics and finally approves a standard
for braille translation that everyone agrees is a good standard. Now
bookshare has to change its system to ensure that its material complies with
this lovely standard. Imagine further that this new standard has a
provision for representing the em dash in a different way-oh, let's just say
the word, a space dot 6, followed by dots 3-6, follow by dot 3, followed by
a space, that followed by a word. Now, bookshare must make sure that all
its braille has the em dash character represented in this new way. If we,
as volunteers, submitted files that have two dashes in them in stead of
having the em dash character this process of conversion becomes much more
complicated. When we talk about substituting double dashes for an em dash
what we are doing is actually changing content for the sake of appearance.
An em dash is a part of the sentence unlike italics and old, which are
styles used to make the appearance of that sentence different.
Scott, you will find that programs such as Duxbury introduce their own
artifacts into braille translation. For many users, who are used to reading
the almost perfect translations provided by the NLS, Duxbury output isn't
sufficient either. In fact, Duxbury output may not be much different at all
than what is provided by bookshare. if you are a braille reader and wish to
do some braille editting,i would suggest that you take the duxbury file and
go through it. It is, unfortunately, a long and tedious process. I applaud
the saints who choose to do this.
Regards,
Pratik
Pratik Patel
Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
The City University of New York
pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 4:54 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
Sorry, but I don't see your point.
You are a director of a company, and one of your employees comes to you
and says: "Yah, I know this document doesn't look as good as it could, and
I could make it look better, but we might get a software upgrade in the
future that makes the document as it looks now look much better than it does
now. So rather than making it look as good as I can now, I will refrain
from doing that so that someday it might look better in the future." Would
you buy that?
----- Original Message -----
From: Pratik patel
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:40 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
Hello all,
Let's not forget that Bookshare's population is not limited to Blind
and partially blind individuals and not all individuals use braille. It's
quite understandable that, as perfectionists, we want to ensure that braille
users can easily consume the products that we produce. However as the em
dash character is not reproduced properly in braille, that does not mean
that we should go and change print characteristics just to suit the needs of
braille users. Automated braille translation produces many eccentricities;
and, if we chose to tailor our print output just so that braille will be
produced properly, many other users will lose out because of that decision.
As bookshare volunteers we cannot distinguish such needs. If you wish to
ensure that braille output is preserved and proper braille is presented to
the user, you certainly have the option of submitting a properly-formatted
braille copy to bookshare.
In other words, we all have to realize-both as users and
volunteers-that bookshare's braille is not perfect. It will get there but
not if we keep on making changes that do not preserve textual integrity.
Pratik
Pratik Patel
Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
The City University of New York
pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 4:12 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
That's what I have said in a message coming to a computer near you
very
soon. <grin>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
> Actually, if I'm not mistaken, when you do a global replace of an m
dash
> with a double dash, you aren't affecting the "properly hyphenated
words"
> at all. If a word already has a single dash in it, removing m dashes
> should have no affect on the single dashes which are already in
place.
>
> Scott
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie Morales" <mercy421@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:45 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>
>
>> Hi, Evan. The only problem with a global replace like that is what
>> happens
>> to properly-hyphenated words. When you replace a single dash with a
>> double
>> dash, that's going to change all of those words, too, and you don't
want
>> that. Take care.
>> Julie Morales
>> Email:
>> mercy421@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> Windows/MSN Messenger only (no email): mercy0421@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> Skype: mercy0421
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 3:35 PM
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>
>>
>> I don't know what the Braille translator does with them. As I
recall,
>> it
>> either doesn't display them properly, or it only puts in one dash
instead
>> of
>> two, which is what you should have in the Braille file. I do know
that
>> in
>> books I scan and read as rtf files, they are not properly displayed
on my
>> Pac Mate. I generally convert them to double dashes with a quick
search
>> and
>> replace all in Word before sending them up to Bookshare.
>>
>> I'm not changing that. I don't see why Braille readers should have
to
>> suffer through crummy-looking text because someday some future
software
>> upgrade just might fix the problem - assuming there is one.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:31 AM
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>
>>
>>> I'm curious though, which comes out better in braille: m dash, or
double
>>> dash? Does it matter? I seem to specifically remember several
people on
>>> this list encouraging the conversion of m dashes to double dashes
for
>>> the
>>> benefit of braille readers.
>>>
>>> Can anybody comment?
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pratik patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:39 AM
>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cindy,
>>>>
>>>> Please stick with the M-dash character when you enter it. The
>>>> automated
>>>> tools may not support the proper conversion, but, we have to make
sure
>>>> that
>>>> future versions of those tools do support such conversions. The
>>>> em-dash
>>>> character is a slightly shorter character than the double dash
(--). I
>>>> know
>>>> we have been working with the formatting to satisfy the stripper
>>>> requirement; but we should try to take a conservative approach
when
>>>> editting
>>>> the original text especially when it comes to formatting. In
some
>>>> cases,
>>>> we
>>>> might have to move words around or make slight font changes but
we
>>>> should
>>>> avoid making other changes.
>>>>
>>>> Pratik
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pratik Patel
>>>> Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
>>>> The City University of New York
>>>> pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:55 AM
>>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>
>>>> Is Lissi right in what she says about two dashes
>>>> instead of an em dash being easier to read in braile?
>>>> What about with Daisy? What should I be doing, em dash
>>>> or double dash?
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> --- Estelnalissi <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Jake,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your directions worked perfectly! I'm levitating! We
>>>>> all know I'm not the
>>>>> fastest barge on the canal when it comes to
>>>>> computers, but your instructions
>>>>> put those m dashes exactly where I needed them.
>>>>>
>>>>> The M dash will be especially easy to remember
>>>>> because it's insert 4 as you
>>>>> said for jaws, and then tapping e 4 times to reach m
>>>>> dash and enter not even
>>>>> having to go to OK!
>>>>>
>>>>> Also exciting is the fact I saw a slew of items
>>>>> listed in the insert 4
>>>>> dialogue box which may turn out to be useful!!
>>>>>
>>>>> The book I'm working on is an Irish memoir. Instead
>>>>> of using quotes or
>>>>> apostrophes, there's a dash or m dash before all
>>>>> quotes and no mark to show
>>>>> the end of the quote. It's plain in print because
>>>>> quotes are inserted
>>>>> farther than the narrative, but I think braille
>>>>> readers will quickly catch
>>>>> the pattern.
>>>>>
>>>>> While blissfully making my corrections with the new
>>>>> command, I noticed that
>>>>> the scanner read these unique indications of quotes
>>>>> as dash about half of
>>>>> the time and M dash the other half with some minus
>>>>> signs thrown in for
>>>>> variety. The mixture was random so I made a command
>>>>> decision to use the
>>>>> simpler dash to indicate quotes. I'm on page 27 now
>>>>> and all quotes are
>>>>> uniformly indicated with a single dash, easier for
>>>>> me and the reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, when this book is approved, I'm going to
>>>>> mention that while
>>>>> anyone interested in quirky humor, Irish culture and
>>>>> recalling life from
>>>>> 1959 through 1960 something will like this book, but
>>>>> the POV, and the
>>>>> father, a kind of hero to the author will really
>>>>> appeal to the gritty guys
>>>>> among the members. I'm entranced, but regularly
>>>>> amused in spite of myself
>>>>> and grossed out, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Always with love,
>>>>>
>>>>> Lissi
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for helping me to enjoy another break
>>>>> through!
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make
>>>>> it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hi Lissi,
>>>>> > There are two easy ways to insert an em-dash
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If you're using Microsoft Word, you can press
>>>>> CTRL+ALT+the minus sign on
>>>>> > the numpad.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If you're using JAWS, you can press INSERT+4 (the
>>>>> 4 on the regular
>>>>> > keyboard) and you'll get a list of symbols. Press
>>>>> the letter e a few times
>>>>> > and you'll find em dash, then press enter.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > That's all there is to it.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Jake
>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > From: "Estelnalissi" <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 5:16 PM
>>>>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] M dash, how to make it?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Dear Volunteer Friends,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> There was a discussion here about making that
>>>>> long dash called m dash by
>>>>> >> Jaws using microsoft word while validating an RTF
>>>>> file. How to make it
>>>>> >> with other programs might have been mentioned,
>>>>> too.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> What I mostly remember is that it was suggested
>>>>> that just using 2 dashes
>>>>> >> comes out better for the braille reader in
>>>>> Bookshare's BRF file of a
>>>>> >> book. So, I decided that when I had a choice, I'd
>>>>> use 2 dashes.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> However, the book I'm validating is already
>>>>> packed with m dashes, so if I
>>>>> >> fix one, I thought it should match them.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> How do I make an m dash? Occasionally jaws calls
>>>>> an m dash a minus, and I
>>>>> >> want to replace the minus signs with m dashes. If
>>>>> anyone can point me to
>>>>> >> the answer or remind me how to do this, I'd
>>>>> appreciate it and save the
>>>>> >> information in my Bookshare Tips file.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> While I wait to hear about this, I'll mark the
>>>>> spot and go on. I'm only
>>>>> >> on page 12, but this book really motivates me to
>>>>> make good progress.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Hope all of your current endeavors are going
>>>>> swimmingly. - Smile
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Always with love,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Lissi
>>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the
>>>>> subject line. To get a list
>>>>> >> of available commands, put the word 'help' by
>>>>> itself in the subject line.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>> >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/354 -
>>>>> Release Date: 6/1/2006
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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