[windows2000] Re: OT: Certification misrepresentation?
- From: Jeff Malczewski <jmalczewski@xxxxxxxx>
- To: "'windows2000@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <windows2000@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:45:24 -0400
I agree, it's not an easy thing to do, and that's why it really upsets me
when the paper guys begin to crop up again. I work very hard at my job, and
I spend even more time outside of it studying. Mind you, the last test I
took was December of 2001 (70-240 -- the 4 1/2 hour upgrade from NT4 to
2000), but it's still tough. I'm getting ready to go and take 70-219 now
(AD Design) which will finally upgrade my MCSE to 2000, and then it's off to
study for two more Exchange 2000 tests to get the Messaging Specialization,
and then if the proposed MCSE changes go through, I need to upgrade my MCSE
to 2003 or lose my premier status with them (there will be three different
levels of MCSE if the changes are put in place). So, there's another two
exams.
All in all, I'm looking at at LEAST 70-219 and 70-224 and 70-225 (both
Exchange 2000) by the end of the year.. Then after that it's 70-292 and
70-296 to upgrade to 2003 MCSE, and then if I want to retain my messaging
specialization, 70-284 and 70-285 (Exchange 2003).
No one EVER said it was easy to be a real MCSE, which is why the real ones
get some respect and decent salaries. I think that part of it falls in the
laps of the hiring managers, who don't screen applicants well enough to be
able to tell if they're paper or real. Most jobs I've interviewed for
recently were all MCSE PLUS a minimum of 5 years experience, as opposed to
just an MCSE... That helps.
That'll be a good thing if MS puts the new MCSE program into place.. The
"Master MCSEs" will only get that title if their certs are current (2003 at
the moment) AND they have 5 years or more of experience. "Senior MCSEs"
will be current certs (2003 again) and at least 3 years experience, while
all the rest (anyone not certified on 2003, regardless of experience, and
those with less than 3 years experience) will just be "MCSEs". Presently,
this is the category I fall into, hence my self-motivation at updating my
certs...
-----Original Message-----
From: Jennifer Hooper [mailto:jennifer.hooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:34 PM
To: 'windows2000@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [windows2000] Re: OT: Certification misrepresentation?
Can I ask a really dumb question?? If this is the case, and there are so
many 'paper' MCSE's (I remember when that was a major deal with CNE's too),
then WHY on earth do so many companies demand that people have them even to
get an interview?? You can't get in the door, let alone a chance to
demonstrate your knowledge. I fight against this *every* time I send a
resume, because though I have 13 years of experience, and several training
courses, I do not have the papers to back me. It really SUCKS. Especially
when you get wheezed out of a job by some kid who just finished a six week
course at MicroSkills or Laptop Training Solutions who was frying hamburgers
a month ago and doesn't even speak Spanglish. BUT, they are an MCSE. Even
with all my school and experience, I was out of work for five months last
year, because I didn't have papers. (More power to those who are driven
enough to take those courses and actually SPEND the time and energy to KNOW
the material rather than those that just learn to pass the exams!!)
Besides, I don't know who can keep up with all the exams to take the
certifications and maintain a Senior-level position... I find myself so
swamped continuously, that I never have time to study or get down to Vortex
to test. It's so bad, they are bringing trainers on site rather than
letting us go down the valley to a school. At least there's that much.
(sorry for the rant)
Thanks,
Jennifer
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Reese [mailto:GReese@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:23 AM
To: windows2000@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [windows2000] Re: OT: Certification misrepresentation?
Trust me Jeff, I can understand why you are bent about it. I would be too.
I am not an MCSE or even an MCP. Heck, I may not even be a Citrix CCA
anymore. There are a lot of paper MCSE's out there and if I was a real
MCSE, I would be pissed as hell because there has been a lot of backlash out
there against you guys because of it.
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: windows2000-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:windows2000-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff Malczewski
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 11:45 AM
To: 'windows2000@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [windows2000] Re: OT: Certification misrepresentation?
That was my thoughts on the legal aspect.. No, they wouldn't put them in
"certification jail" as Greg said, but I'm sure there is something somewhere
in the Microsoft certification package about upholding a code of ethics and
not misrepresenting yourself, etc etc...
As for providing his transcript, *I* have seen it. The problem is, he won't
show it to anyone else, including his supervisor, who also doesn't seem to
care about the matter... He has an MCP+i certificate on his wall, so the
un-knowing supervisor automatically thinks that since he has an MCSE and
this other one says MCP+i that it's ok to put the two together, even though
he's legally two tests and a few hundred thousand brain cells short of the
real cert... IMHO he shouldn't have the MCSE either, since it was a
boot-camp MCSE and he didn't retain anything from it...
And Greg- I know this is the sort of thing that gives the rest of us a bad
name. I have worked hard, studied, gotten TONS of hands on, and done
everything that needs to be done to ensure that I actually KNOW the material
that piece of paper says I know. Why do you think I'm bent about this
id10t??
-----Original Message-----
From: Braebaum, Neil [mailto:Neil.Braebaum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 10:03 AM
To: windows2000@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [windows2000] Re: OT: Certification misrepresentation?
> Subject: [windows2000] Re: OT: Certification misrepresentation?
> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:40:35 -0400
> From: "Greg Reese" <GReese@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> Not legal? What are they going to do? Put the person in
> certification jail?
Um, it could be fraud.
Certainly in the UK, if it was used to get a job, or attempt to, it could be
viewed as fraudulently obtaining a pecunary advantage.
> It's the same as lying on a resume. Unethical and shady but not
> necessarily punishable by law.
Not necessarily - true, but it could be, depending on how it's used.
That's ignoring any contractual, trademark, copyright or other civil issues
with the cert vendor.
Neil
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