RE: Team Excellence Award Winner
- From: "Chris Hofstader" <chris.hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:11:42 -0500
What ever happened to the off topic list someone set up as a parallel to
this one?
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of inthaneelf
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:34 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
you misread that, which is not unusual for you.
my father had the damaged hand and bad ear, and was a top line computer
systems annalist, the football player was his icon for motivation to try no
matter what, and was missing half his foot, and seeing as he was a kicker,
it did matter a whole lot.
now then since this is turning into another argument about what the blind
can and can't do, I'm making this last correction, and dropping this line so
I don't get myself unplugged by the new list owner/moderator
inthane
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
> The football player having lost his ear won't effect his performance on
> the field. Losing part of his hand is also not crucial to the job
> description is he is not a player who needs to handle the ball. This is
> not a good example of a disabled individual beating the odds.
>
> the lawyer, there is absolutely no way, no freakin way I would invest my
> money on a blind lawyer unless it is a blindness related matter I'm
> confronted with. How can a blind lawyer read original text on contracts?
> What if the signatures on documentation were said to have been forged, but
> the blind lawyer can't see for himself? It would be pretty expensive to
> hire someone to run the assessment if it is obvious the signatures or
> other written documentation hasn't been forged. I won't trust OCR for
> scanning my mail much less to be used to scan a client's important
> documents. How can a blind lawyer read faces during a deposition or during
> a trial to know what line of questioning to follow-up on? How can a blind
> lawyer dismantle another lawyer's arguments if they involve the
> presentation of tables, charts, graphs, pictures, physical demonstrations
> and so on? You've obviously never worked with lawyers as they are some of
> the most cunning and intelligent individuals you will ever come
> across--the good ones that is.
>
> "if you want to know about a blind bio-chemistry major..."
>
> He's still a student and not a blind professional. By the way, depending
> on the field he goes into, he mostly will be waiting a long time to be
> hired as an employer will obviously see that it will be a bit of a
> challenge for the blind chemist to work independently. He could always do
> the next best thing for blind individuals who have spent enormous amounts
> of time obtaining worthless degrees, he can teach--I did.
>
> You're also using emotion as the main engine driving your arguments, which
> is a pretty shaky foundation as support. Regarding who should do the
> research, you posted information regarding these blind individuals, I'm
> only asking you provide factual evidence and not anecdotal support for
> your arguments.
>
> Matthew
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>> you'll have to locate them yourself,
>>
>> the football player was one of my fathers idols, he having lost part of
>> his hand and the hearing in one ear in the navy, he used this NFL player
>> as a example of what can be done, but not being a football person, I
>> never attempted to remember his name or look him up.
>>
>> the lawyer you can probably find and get contact information from the
>> orange county Braille institute since he was a guest speaker there a
>> couple times while I was attending classes, and I believe is still doing
>> talks there.
>>
>> the fencing master I did have an article on, but that was on the computer
>> that was taken from me and I haven't had time to go find it again, when I
>> do, I'll post it.
>>
>> if you want to know about a blind bio-chemistry major in a prominent
>> university, then contact the disabled student center of UCI (university
>> California Irvine) and ask them since they were going to refer me to
>> them when I asked about accomplishing the lab requirements to fulfill a
>> physics degree
>>
>> you want the proof, go look things up like I do, don't ask me to do the
>> running around that you require mat,I ain't your bloody go-for!
>>
>> inthane
>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me
>> at:
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:40 AM
>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>
>>
>>> Name them.
>>>
>>> Better yet, send links where we can read about them ourselves rather
>>> than depending on someone else's possibly distorted assessment of the
>>> situation.
>>>
>>> Teddy is dead on 100% correct!
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>
>>>
>>>> teddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my
>>>> previous reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have a habit of
>>>> overloading my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if I don't
>>>> decide it doesn't warrant a reply when I cool down...
>>>>
>>>> I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that have
>>>> mastered areas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas as
>>>> well or better than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humans
>>>>
>>>> laters,
>>>> inthane
>>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit
>>>> me at:
>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
>>>> programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Oh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn't even show
>>>>> us the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words come one
>>>>> after another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybe the
>>>>> first is a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text
>>>>> written dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scroll slowly up
>>>>> or down becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be. Oh yes, there
>>>>> are handicapped people without a leg that participate in different
>>>>> sports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that they will
>>>>> never be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad he is.
>>>>>
>>>>> And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also
>>>>> important. What we can do would have a very low value if we would be
>>>>> able to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Octavian
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> which except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, since we
>>>>>> live in a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are going
>>>>>> to need to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have no
>>>>>> experience in the visual view of things, this is one area where I
>>>>>> have an advantage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but... you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it's the
>>>>>> majority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealing with
>>>>>> it, use the standards and templates when and where you can, and do
>>>>>> your best to adapt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the best description for trying to convey sight to a person that has
>>>>>> never had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight in his
>>>>>> life,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> its the description I use now a days, since I have found myself often
>>>>>> trying to describe visual aspects to those who have never had site.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep
>>>>>> yourself at the top of the page, and turn on the invisible cursor and
>>>>>> go up and down the page to see what it actually looks like, such as,
>>>>>> the that that instead of the vertical column that jaws presents us
>>>>>> with, that its actually more like a message written in Braille,
>>>>>> including the navigation links which run from left to right across
>>>>>> the page, not in the vertical column that is presented to us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> take care, and good luck,
>>>>>> inthane
>>>>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
>>>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
>>>>>> visit me at:
>>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
>>>>>> programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>>>> Well I have never seen ... so I have no a ... let's call it ...
>>>>>>> visual
>>>>>>> standards so, although I can technically do it very well ... I can
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> plan, like imagine, build ... a nice visual interface, because I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> know what it is expected. A quick example is I beleaved gfirmly that
>>>>>>> the windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the
>>>>>>> listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me
>>>>>>> naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview was in
>>>>>>> the right!!!!
>>>>>>> Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen
>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>> use to present web content, I have dificulties to imagine hwat
>>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>>> sighted people expect to see in a webpage or something like this.
>>>>>>> I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and
>>>>>>> putting
>>>>>>> * them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what would happen
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how
>>>>>>> browsers would react to it without testing is something very
>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>> If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern look and
>>>>>>> feel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces based on
>>>>>>> the standards of what should be common to folks, but the only thing
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> can do for now is build an interface based on someone's
>>>>>>> specifications. And even then I will spend eforts trying to build
>>>>>>> something which belongs to a group of situations that I can't
>>>>>>> imagine
>>>>>>> very well ... and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my own work,
>>>>>>> which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of ...
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but they will
>>>>>>> feel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing
>>>>>>> something which has not a visual result as its goal ... which should
>>>>>>> be perfectly logical.
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Marlon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>> Hi Jim. Excellent news. Congrats Jeff. Just shows what, if you
>>>>>>>> all will
>>>>>>>> forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mention hard
>>>>>>>> work and
>>>>>>>> determination, and the willingness to try. Cheers!
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Hi All,
>>>>>>>> > Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who won
>>>>>>>> > a very
>>>>>>>> > prestigious award. The team developed a highly visible web
>>>>>>>> > application.
>>>>>>>> > Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site
>>>>>>>> > using HTML,
>>>>>>>> > CSS and Javascript. He used Section 508 and W3C techniques and
>>>>>>>> > the sighted
>>>>>>>> > people in the company rave about it.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is blind
>>>>>>>> > cannot
>>>>>>>> > design Web interfaces well to keep on trying. You can do it.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Jim
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
>>>>>>>> > james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can
>>>>>>>> > change the
>>>>>>>> > world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret
>>>>>>>> > Mead
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > __________
>>>>>>>> > View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
>>>>>>> stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
>>>>>>> free."
>>>>>>> Linus Torvalds
>>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>>
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