Re: Team Excellence Award Winner

*taking a deep breath*, *counting to ten*,

*reciting mantra's to calm my spirit*
teddy, one doesn't become a professional foot ball player in the NFL by being better than the worst foot ball player, or by being even with the average players despite his having only half of his right foot...
one does not become a respected and well paid attorney by being just better than someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of the law, nor a professional class skier by being equal to sighted average skiers, despite the fact that the gentleman is both blind and a double amputee...
one does not earn the title of fencing master, even sighted, by only fencing with those who are average with a foil, or by fencing only with those who are blind, even if one is blind themselves...
these are the types of people I am talking about, they are masters of there fields, despite there disadvantages, not over those who don't or haven't learned how, I'm talking about people with distinct disadvantages that makes there choice of work seem ridiculous to many, and force the world to recognize that if one wishes to, and is willing to do what is required to accomplish it, that they can be a top gun in there field, no matter what...
quit with the f... reeking you can't, because if one of us wishes to put forth the effort, and the time, we can, period end of quote! 

inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: 
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: 
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
Oh yes that could be true. There are sighted persons that don't even know how to use a computer. So we can say that we as web designers are better at web design than them. But who cares that we can be better than those sighted that don't know too many things? We should be better comparing us with the medium-skilled sighted web designer.... at least. But unfortunately a medium-skilled web designer might know to create images, maybe a little Flash, some Javascript, and nobody will care that he doesn't put a document type declaration at the top of his web pages, or that his pages won't be W3C compliant.
If you will check the Google's web page with the W3C's html validator, it will tell you: 

Failed validation, 30 Errors
So... of course W3C's validator is not important at all, because Google's page is very accessible, very simple, and with a design.... better said almost without any design. 


Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
teddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my previous reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have a habit of overloading my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if I don't decide it doesn't warrant a reply when I cool down...
I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that have mastered areas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas as well or better than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humans 

laters,
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: 
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: 
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
Oh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn't even show us the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words come one after another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybe the first is a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text written dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scroll slowly up or down becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh.
I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be. Oh yes, there are handicapped people without a leg that participate in different sports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that they will never be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad he is.
And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also important. What we can do would have a very low value if we would be able to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer. 

Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
which except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, since we live in a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are going to need to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have no experience in the visual view of things, this is one area where I have an advantage.
but... you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it's the majority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealing with it, use the standards and templates when and where you can, and do your best to adapt.
the best description for trying to convey sight to a person that has never had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight in his life,
its the description I use now a days, since I have found myself often trying to describe visual aspects to those who have never had site.
one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep yourself at the top of the page, and turn on the invisible cursor and go up and down the page to see what it actually looks like, such as, the that that instead of the vertical column that jaws presents us with, that its actually more like a message written in Braille, including the navigation links which run from left to right across the page, not in the vertical column that is presented to us. 

take care, and good luck,
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: 
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: 
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner



Hello folks,
Well I have never seen ... so I have no a ... let's call it ... visual
standards so, although I can technically do it very well ... I can not
plan, like imagine, build ... a nice visual interface, because I don't
know what it is expected. A quick example is I beleaved gfirmly that
the windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the
listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me
naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview was in
the right!!!!
Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen readers
use to present web content, I have dificulties to imagine hwat exactly
sighted people expect to see in a webpage or something like this.
I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and putting
* them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what would happen if
one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how
browsers would react to it without testing is something very
different.
If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern look and
feel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces based on
the standards of what should be common to folks, but the only thing I
can do for now is build an interface based on someone's
specifications. And even then I will spend eforts trying to build
something which belongs to a group of situations that I can't imagine
very well ... and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my own work,
which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of ... now
the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but they will
feel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing
something which has not a visual result as its goal ... which should
be perfectly logical.
Thanks
Marlon

2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
Hi Jim. Excellent news. Congrats Jeff. Just shows what, if you all will forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mention hard work and 
determination, and the willingness to try.  Cheers!
----- Original Message -----
From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM
Subject: Team Excellence Award Winner


>
> Hi All,
> Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who won a > very > prestigious award. The team developed a highly visible web > application. > Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site using > HTML, > CSS and Javascript. He used Section 508 and W3C techniques and the > sighted 
> people in the company rave about it.
>
> I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is blind > cannot 
> design Web interfaces well to keep on trying. You can do it.
>
> Jim
>
> James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>
> "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can > change the > world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret > Mead 
>
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When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
free."
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