Re: Team Excellence Award Winner

Oh yes Marlon, this is exactly what I wanted to say.

However, I need to appologise because I know that my style of writing, even when I am laughing, not only smiling, doesn't make the text sound very well, and I already know that many folks hate me thinking that I am a bad guy that tries to do only bad things because of this.

I appreciate all what the blind can do, not only in iT domain, and I also think, really think that it is a good idea to promote us, promote the blind comunity by telling the others what a blind person can do, what a blind person could know, show which are the successful blind persons in some fields, what awards they got, and so on. A few days ago I've just told on a mailing list for the blind that I think that it would be a good idea to have a web site that shows things like that in order to show the companies that there are valuable blind persons.

However, when we talk, when we the blind persons have a kind of private discussion, no matter that it could be seen by other persons, I don't like to fool ourselves telling how great we are and how many things we can. Nope, we can't do very well very many things. We can do some things extraordinary well, like in programming for example, but not in very many other fields.

Octavian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


Hello folks,
You are all wrong and all right at the same time. People trying to
ignore Teddy's points are crazzy or don't want to accept the fact that
doing a visual thing without sight is, at minimum, harder and many
times slower than doing \it with full sight available.
It is clear that a good web designer now adays should know a little of
drawing, a little of flash, and several other technologies. They can
always press the f5 key and see instantly if what the hell htey did is
or isn't working!!!
The thing is ... the awarded guy was awarded by ... sighted people!!
... which means that he, or any other blind, by their selves, wouldn't
be even able to evaluate the design of the website!!
Well ... i can evaluate a software by means of accessibility,
usability, features, resources, performanse, installation ... but I
can not evaluate its visual design!!
Now folks who desagree with Teddy's opinions please keep reading,
cinse I also do at some extent.
If the guy was awarded I am sure he did a great job, and I really feel
good because a blind person was recognized as being a good designer
... but the fact is this: ask him to draw a picture, ask him to do a
perfect flash animation and ask him to do a pretty heavy site
interface without following standards ... Could he do it? Possibly
yes. Now ask him to do all this in the same time a sighted designer
uses to do it. Could he do it? Now ask him to do all this but tell him
that he isn't allowed to use other members from the team opinions,
because they have their own work and ... as a sighted designer
wouldn't need to use other's time to test its work then he also won't
be allowed to do this ... Could he do it?
Well, I don't know about you, but I am not able to write a 10000 lines
C program and compile it only when it is all written. I have to write
modules, test them, then continue with the developement. What you're
claiming is perfectly possible is something similar to this: the guy
can't even test what he is doing without sighted help.
Again, I know that it could be done, but it wold spend more time, and
time from someone else to test. One is more productive working with
developping daemons, or the back end of the web application, or doing
a windows service ... I have to desagree with Inthane, there's many
things away from gui's in the software developement area ...
Now, I don't know how things work in u.s or in the majority of well
developed countries from where most part of you come from, but talking
francly ... the companies are itnerested in productivity. If it's
bealty to see a blind doing a nice page but if he or she takes more
time to do it then he or she doesn't belong to the profile of possible
emploieis of a company actually.
I as a blind will work in aspects and things I know I am more
productive ... and gui's developement for now isn't one of these
areas. I am in the same point than someone else if a component needs
to be developed, I don't need sight to develope, test and release a
component. The chanses are basicly the same, I can do it well. But I
am not in the same point to someone sighted when doing a graphical
user interface!! Try to say the oposit is insane! A sighted one can
test by their selves, this is already a pretty big difference at all.
Thanks
Marlon

p.s. And, please, no ofenses or nervous. This is all about discussing
ideas and not a war, at least I hope you consider it this way
otherwise I would loose my time writting all this.

2007/11/29, inthaneelf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
*taking a deep breath*, *counting to ten*,

*reciting mantra's to calm my spirit*

teddy, one doesn't become a professional foot ball player in the NFL by
being better than the worst foot ball player, or by being even with the
average players despite his having only half of his right foot...

one does not become a respected and well paid attorney by being just better
than someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of the law, nor a
professional class skier by being equal to sighted average skiers, despite
the fact that the gentleman is both blind and a double amputee...

one does not earn the title of fencing master, even sighted, by only fencing
with those who are average with a foil, or by fencing only with those who
are blind, even if one is blind themselves...

these are the types of people I am talking about, they are masters of there
fields, despite there disadvantages, not over those who don't or haven't
learned how, I'm talking about people with distinct disadvantages that makes
there choice of work seem ridiculous to many, and force the world to
recognize that if one wishes to, and is willing to do what is required to
accomplish it, that they can be a top gun in there field, no matter what...

quit with the f... reeking you can't, because if one of us wishes to put
forth the effort, and the time, we can, period end of quote!

inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links
to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


> Oh yes that could be true. There are sighted persons that don't even > know
> how to use a computer. So we can say that we as web designers are better
> at web design than them. But who cares that we can be better than those
> sighted that don't know too many things?
> We should be better comparing us with the medium-skilled sighted web
> designer.... at least.
> But unfortunately a medium-skilled web designer might know to create
> images, maybe a little Flash, some Javascript, and nobody will care that
> he doesn't put a document type declaration at the top of his web pages, > or
> that his pages won't be W3C compliant.
>
> If you will check the Google's web page with the W3C's html validator, > it
> will tell you:
>
> Failed validation, 30 Errors
>
> So... of course W3C's validator is not important at all, because > Google's
> page is very accessible, very simple, and with a design.... better said
> almost without any design.
>
>
> Octavian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>> teddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my >> previous
>> reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have a habit of overloading
>> my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if I don't decide it >> doesn't
>> warrant a reply when I cool down...
>>
>> I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that have >> mastered
>> areas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas as well or
>> better than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humans
>>
>> laters,
>> inthane
>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit >> me
>> at:
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several >> programming
>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>
>>
>>> Oh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn't even show
>>> us the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words come one
>>> after another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybe the >>> first >>> is a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text >>> written
>>> dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scroll slowly up or down
>>> becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh.
>>>
>>> I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be. Oh yes, there
>>> are handicapped people without a leg that participate in different
>>> sports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that they will
>>> never be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad he is.
>>>
>>> And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also
>>> important. What we can do would have a very low value if we would be
>>> able to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer.
>>>
>>> Octavian
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>
>>>
>>>> which except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, since we >>>> live >>>> in a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are going to >>>> need >>>> to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have no experience in >>>> the
>>>> visual view of things, this is one area where I have an advantage.
>>>>
>>>> but... you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it's the
>>>> majority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealing with
>>>> it, use the standards and templates  when and where you can, and do
>>>> your best to adapt.
>>>>
>>>> the best description for trying to convey sight to a person that has
>>>> never had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight in his
>>>> life,
>>>>
>>>> its the description I use now a days, since I have found myself often
>>>> trying to describe visual aspects to those who have never had site.
>>>>
>>>> one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep >>>> yourself >>>> at the top of the page, and turn on the invisible cursor and go up >>>> and
>>>> down the page to see what it actually looks like, such as, the  that
>>>> that instead of the vertical column that jaws presents us with, that
>>>> its actually more like a message written in Braille, including the
>>>> navigation links which run from left to right across the page, not in
>>>> the vertical column that is presented to us.
>>>>
>>>> take care, and good luck,
>>>> inthane
>>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, >>>> visit
>>>> me at:
>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
>>>> programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>> Well I have never seen ... so I have no a ... let's call it ... >>>>> visual >>>>> standards so, although I can technically do it very well ... I can >>>>> not >>>>> plan, like imagine, build ... a nice visual interface, because I >>>>> don't
>>>>> know what it is expected. A quick example is I beleaved gfirmly that
>>>>> the windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the
>>>>> listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me
>>>>> naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview was in
>>>>> the right!!!!
>>>>> Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen >>>>> readers >>>>> use to present web content, I have dificulties to imagine hwat >>>>> exactly
>>>>> sighted people expect to see in a webpage or something like this.
>>>>> I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and >>>>> putting >>>>> * them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what would happen >>>>> if
>>>>> one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how
>>>>> browsers would react to it without testing is something very
>>>>> different.
>>>>> If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern look and
>>>>> feel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces based on
>>>>> the standards of what should be common to folks, but the only thing >>>>> I
>>>>> can do for now is build an interface based on someone's
>>>>> specifications. And even then I will spend eforts trying to build
>>>>> something which belongs to a group of situations that I can't >>>>> imagine
>>>>> very well ... and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my own work,
>>>>> which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of ... >>>>> now
>>>>> the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but they will
>>>>> feel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing
>>>>> something which has not a visual result as its goal ... which should
>>>>> be perfectly logical.
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Marlon
>>>>>
>>>>> 2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>> Hi Jim. Excellent news. Congrats Jeff. Just shows what, if you >>>>>> all
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mention hard
>>>>>> work and
>>>>>> determination, and the willingness to try.  Cheers!
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Hi All,
>>>>>> > Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who won >>>>>> > a
>>>>>> > very
>>>>>> > prestigious award. The team developed a highly visible web
>>>>>> > application.
>>>>>> > Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site >>>>>> > using
>>>>>> > HTML,
>>>>>> > CSS and Javascript. He used Section 508 and W3C techniques and >>>>>> > the
>>>>>> > sighted
>>>>>> > people in the company rave about it.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is blind
>>>>>> > cannot
>>>>>> > design Web interfaces well to keep on trying. You can do it.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Jim
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
>>>>>> > james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can
>>>>>> > change the
>>>>>> > world.  Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret
>>>>>> > Mead
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > __________
>>>>>> > View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> > http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
>>>>> stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
>>>>> free."
>>>>> Linus Torvalds
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>
>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>
> __________
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>


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--
When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
free."
Linus Torvalds
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