[patriots] Re: News re Holocaust
- From: "Fred Bishop" <fredbiship@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <rayspost@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, <ukpatriot@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 10:12:45 +0100
A more pressing and imminent problem.
Looks like the cholera ovens my just be needed again Ray.
Now we see the real reason for the European project. I dont see England
mentioned so perhaps they wont want us to send troops.
"Germany, alone, is too insignificant, to be able to affect change in global
policies." "Only when the [EU] member nations pull together in integration
and foreign policy, does Europe have the political clout necessary for
Germany[!] to effectively pursue its interests."
Now theres a nice statement from our European friends.
Fred
Subject: Getting down to brass tacks at last eh! Into the open.
Why did our people fight two world wars at great human cost, only to be
betrayed by the political class since, without a shot being fired?
Leadership In and With Europe
2014/09/11
BERLIN
(Own report) - Germany should play "a more important global role" and assume
a stronger "leadership in and with Europe," according to a German government
advisor's assessment of a PR discussion of foreign policy, initiated by the
German Foreign Ministry. According to the foreign minister, the discussion,
in the framework of the project "Review 2014," should help to close the
"glaring gap" between the Berlin establishment's global policy orientation
and the population's "willingness" to condone, for example, military
missions. Prepared and conducted by the foreign ministry's Policy Planning
Staff, This project is part of a campaign for a more aggressive German
global policy. The German President launched this campaign with a speech in
celebration of the 2013 German national holiday. According to the assessment
of the "Review 2014," the discussion seems to indicate a consensus that
"Germany, alone, is too insignificant to affect changes in global policy."
Hence, Germany needs the EU. "Europe possesses the political clout necessary
for Germany to be able to effectively pursue its interests." In the future,
Germany's "partnership with the USA" must be on an "equal footing."
Foreign Policy without Support
The "Review 2014" Project, as well as other measures undertaken by the
German government, must be seen in the context of the gap between Berlin's
increasingly aggressive global policy and the prevalent mood of the
country's population. Just recently, Foreign Minister Frank-Walter
Steinmeier (SPD) pointed to a survey revealing that only 30 percent of the
German population is "open" to their country "assuming more responsibility."
As usual, the term "responsibility" is merely a euphemism for intensifying
global activities.[1] According to Steinmeier, his foreign ministry had
commissioned the survey. "A foreign policy is not good and sustainable, if
it does not enjoy broad popular support," is a widespread view inside the
ministry, as one of the department heads reports.[2] Berlin's foreign
policy, in fact, is contested and should expect the effects of erosion.
Foreign Minister Steinmeier is now calling for closing the "glaring gap"
between the "willingness" of the population and the "expectation" that
Berlin will play a more resolute role in global policy. The foreign ministry
has been trying to close this gap for the past two years.
Lead more Often and more Resolute
The campaign, initiated and conducted by the German foreign ministry's
Policy Planning Staff, began with a joint project of the German Institute
for International and Security Affairs (SWP) and the German Marshall Fund of
the United States (GMF). Between November 2012 and September 2013, around 50
representatives of ministries, think tanks, universities, industry and the
media elaborated "Elements of a Foreign Policy Strategy for Germany." In
October 2013, they published their strategy paper entitled "New Power - New
Responsibilities" which programmatically affirms that Germany, today, has
"more power and influence than any democratic Germany in history." "Germany
will have to lead more often and more resolutely in the future."[3] The
paper has been widely propagated throughout the foreign policy community.
Since October 2013, top-level politicians in Berlin as well as publicists,
have repeatedly raised the demand for a more offensive German global policy
- most prominently, German President Joachim Gauck. Gauck's biographer,
Johann Legner, recently said that Gauck "is fully engaged in the policy
making of the German government." "Gauck says what many are thinking, but
not always willing to say, because this would make dialogue contacts, Gauck
does not even have, more difficult to establish." It could really be "called
a strategy."[4] It could be advantageous that, since the summer of 2013,
Gauck has employed a new speechwriter, who had worked with the SWP/GMF
project, and was therefore engaged in the formulation of the "New Power -
New Responsibility" paper.
A Stronger Global Role
The "Review 2014" project - launched in the spring by the foreign ministry's
Policy Planning Staff - is one of the measures aimed at convincing a large
sector of public opinion of the necessity of a more aggressive German global
policy. The idea is to raise the subject in general discourse, by way of a
series of discussion programs on various aspects of German foreign policy.
In addition, a separate website publishes these discussion papers, wherein
experts expose their standpoints on foreign policy.[5] An SWP associate, who
participated in the work of the "project group Review 2014" of the foreign
ministry's Policy Planning staff, has drawn up a sort of intermediary report
on the project, which was published in "Internationale Politik," the leading
review on Berlin's foreign policy. According to this intermediary report,
the discussion follows precisely the orientation that had been called for by
the SWP/GMF project in their final document: "Germany should play a stronger
role in global policy." It is a question of "more German leadership in and
with Europe."[6]
The Clout Germany Needs
According to the intermediary report, many of the project's discussion
papers show that "Germany, alone, is too insignificant, to be able to affect
change in global policies." "Only when the [EU] member nations pull together
in integration and foreign policy, does Europe have the political clout
necessary for Germany[!] to effectively pursue its interests." Therefore,
Germany would be "well advised to politically invest further in Europe." For
example, "together with other EU member nations" this would permit it "to
contribute to the 'multilateralization of America' and the 'Europeanization
of Russia'." "A Germany, working through Europe, could also better take on
the challenges entailed by the configuration of the digital society," quotes
the author from papers treating the "question of data security," in the
project - referring to the NSA scandal. "The development of a globally
competitive cloud provider, search engines and other strategically important
enterprises," it continues, are "only to be expected, if they - similar to
the Airbus, 40 years ago - would be successively developed and promoted in
Europe."[7] As was announced yesterday, Wednesday, Günther Oettinger, from
Germany, has become the EU Commissioner for that new Commission.
In Equal Partnership with the USA
The author of the intermediary report of "Review 2014" points to differences
in proposals made in the papers concerning relations to the USA. On the one
hand, Germany is "emphatically warned not to jeopardize transatlantic ties"
- especially for military reasons: "Without the USA, no NATO, no
protection," writes the author of one paper, in light of the United States'
still unrivaled military power. On the other, "a multitude of voices ... are
calling for the German government to play a more assertive role with its own
foreign policy profile." For example, it is demanded that Germany's policy
toward Russia be "embedded in a comprehensive Eurasian strategy, which would
include such countries as China, India and important Eurasian actors like
Turkey and Iran." "Perhaps the most important lesson" to be learned from the
papers in the project, according to the intermediary report, is "a
confirmation of the new German self-concept and a summons to continue down
this path in and with Europe, within a mature and equal partnership with the
USA."[8] Even this result corresponds to the key message of the SWP/GMF "New
Power - New Responsibility" strategy paper.
Not yet Arrived
In any case, this elite discussion has not yet reached the broad masses of
the population, to the point that would satisfy the German establishment. An
associate of the European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR) points to a
recent opinion poll about Germany's supplying weapons to Iraq. An earlier
poll had indicated that approval of weapons deliveries and military missions
would be at their highest, if they would serve to prevent genocide.[9]
Preventing genocide at the hands of the terrorist organization "Islamic
State" (IS) was the justification for arms deliveries to the Kurdish
military in northern Iraq, from the very beginning.[10] If Berlin thought
that this would appreciably enhance popular approval for delivering weapons,
it would have to think again: Sixty percent of the German population,
according to the ECFR, remains opposed to arming the Kurdish military in
Iraq.[11]
Other reports and background information on Germany's global policy can be
found here: Sleeping Demons
<http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58684> , The Re-Evaluation
of German Foreign Policy
<http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58691> , Domination over
Europe <http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58694> , The Agenda
2020 <http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58712> , The World's
Expectations <http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58715> ,
Germany's <http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58717> "Act of
Liberation", Hegemon with a Guilty Conscience
<http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58752> and The Elite
Wants More <http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58764> .
[1] See Außen und innen
<http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/de/fulltext/58932> .
[2] Annegret Bendiek: Abschied von der Juniorpartnerschaft. Für mehr
deutsche Führung in und durch Europa. Internationale Politik
September/Oktober 2014.
[3] Neue Macht - Neue Verantwortung. Elemente einer deutschen Außen- und
Sicherheitspolitik für eine Welt im Umbruch. Ein Papier der Stiftung
Wissenschaft und Politik (SWP) und des German Marshall Fund of the United
States (GMF), Oktober 2013. See The Re-Evaluation of German Foreign Policy
<http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58691> .
[4] "Wohlüberlegt und abgestimmt". www.tagesschau.de 02.09.2014.
[5] See Von Linealstaaten und pazifistischem Mehltau
<http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/de/fulltext/58869> .
[6] See Außen und innen
<http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/de/fulltext/58932> .
[7], [8] Annegret Bendiek: Abschied von der Juniorpartnerschaft. Für mehr
deutsche Führung in und durch Europa. Internationale Politik
September/Oktober 2014.
[9] See Die Weltpolitik-Kampagne der Eliten
<http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/de/fulltext/58894> .
[10] See The Public's Keen Sensitivity
<http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58774> .
[11] Josef Janning: Germany needs more leadership on foreign policy.
www.ecfr.eu 03.09.2014.
From: patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Rays1
Sent: 21 September 2014 21:07
To: ukpatriot@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Patriots list
Subject: [patriots] Re: News re Holocaust
Jack,
you provide this.....
http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz.jpg
I await Evidence, Clearly, you are unable to do so
We are therefore done here, as I said
You are not the holder of some secret knowledge known only to you few.
I suggest you reflect rather than I
Ray
From: patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Jack Lewis
Sent: 21 September 2014 20:29
To: patriots@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [patriots] Re: News re Holocaust
I told you that you have been given just some of the evidence but obviously
you either haven't looked at it or choose to ignore it.
You are not the first person who has refused to consider the anti-Holocaust
evidence because of relatives being involved. One person who refuses to
communicate with me now, whose father was one of the first troops into
Belson, I think it was, will not consider the evidence of the military
doctors. His simply will not accept it. It is obvious why in that he cannot
bring himself to think that his dad was misled. Like you it is a deep seated
belief and people do not easily give up deep seated beliefs as it becomes a
personal attack on them. Think about it Ray!
Jack
On 21/09/2014 17:40, Rays1 wrote:
Exactly
And you provide none - nor response to any issues or points I raise.
The "closed mind" issue is again, one you should reconsider
We are done here, Jack
From: patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Jack Lewis
Sent: 21 September 2014 13:24
To: patriots@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [patriots] Re: News re Holocaust
I've said there is no point in discussing this with you because you will not
look at the evidence.
Jack
On 21/09/2014 12:35, Rays1 wrote:
Jack,
With the best will in the world, This is becoming fruitless as the norms of
debate seem to be being a little bypassed
You are STILL focussing upon "The Joos" figures alone whilst my original
point was, why dont we examine the issues
involved in locking up masses of population without cause? And that this is
what is in store for all of us in the end
I already agreed with you that those figures are open to dispute and thus I
acknowledged that it was NOT an "irrelevant detail"
but, you respond to me as if I have NOT agreed with that!?
When I in actual fact, AGREE with you; you nevertheless respond as if I had
NOT agreed with you...the question then
becomes; why are you persisting in creating causes for us to pointlessly
'fight' rather than continue reasoned debate as to what we
may logistically achieve from here?
We've had this before, Jack and you already know that I dislike such
adversarial conflict for little apparent reason.
As before, I simply want to achieve something,. logistically - to help save
my country from what I perceive to be it's bleak
future in the EU
You sent a list of "figures" but, Jack, they are no more reliable than if I
drew up and sent you a list of figures to the opposite
If this is going to go down the route of disrespect and ridicule of me
simply because I pose a question,
then we have reached an 'end-stage', it would seem
Just take me off this list then?
All the best for you and yours in the future whatever the case
....................
Ray
From: patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Jack Lewis
Sent: 20 September 2014 19:01
To: patriots@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [patriots] Re: News re Holocaust
That's a hell of an admission! From 6 million down to 271,000 and you just
glossed over it an irrelevant detail.
German's enemies were forced in the same we forced Germans, Italians and
Japs into internment camps.
One of things missing from your emails on this issue is 'evidence'. There is
no point in quoting the 'official' line as this is exactly what our evidence
contradicts. If you want to continue this discussion you have to show where
our evidence is wrong .
Mike has already given you much to consider but I bet you don't look at it.
Jack
On 20/09/2014 18:38, Rays1 wrote:
Hello Jack,
As I say, the numbers may well be in dispute, I agree but, the point remains
that people being *forced* into camps
is still always overlooked don't you think?
We may all soon be forced into them as well I think. The underlying and
over-arching fascist attitude towards masses of
the population is what I'm getting at. It's this we are facing again -
albeit in a much more sophisticated and computerised
manner that the Nazis and Stalinists could only dream of achieving
What we are dealing with is deeper than distracting arguments over things
like the numbers involved
The NOW is what concerns me more...and how we all deal with it and respond
to it logistically, hence my suggestion for
wide-spread leaflets and such, you know?
Ray
From: patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Jack Lewis
Sent: 20 September 2014 15:43
To: patriots@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [patriots] Re: News re Holocaust
Hi Ray,
Mike mentioned the Red Cross having representatives in EVERY camp - the Red
Cross produced a document that showed the total death toll over all the
camps was just over 271,301 people. See document below.
Jack
http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz.jpg
Calm down Ray, no-one is saying anything of the sort. Of course there were
dead and dying, and of course the scenes encountered by the camp liberators
were horrifying, but this was only in some of the camps. These particular
camps just so happened to have typhus and other epidemics raging through
them and had not been receiving food or medical supplies for months as a
direct result of the allies bombing the supply lines. This is a matter of
record, indeed the Red Cross, who had representatives in ALL of the camps,
said that the allied bombing did more harm to the inmates in those those
particular camps during the last three or four months leading up to their
liberation than the Germans had done throughout the entire war. That is what
your friends and relatives witnessed as opposed to the hysterical lies and
propaganda that you are spouting. Did you not know that the allied medical
corps (both US and British) carried out post mortems on thousands of the
dead and reported that the inmates had died from typhus and other diseases
and malnutrition? Not one single case of death by gas poisoning could be
found. None! Their reports can still be seen today/ Your American officers
were absolutely correct to be disgusted but, acting on pure impulse,
unfortunately they took their disgust out on the wrong people.
As for you reference to "gas ovens", they were actually coke fired
crematoria, designed and built to cremate people who died in the camps.
Bodies could not be buried, particularly at Auschwitz, because of the risk
of Typhus so they were burned. There were only a small number of crematoria,
and certainly nowhere near enough to burn the ridiculous numbers touted by
the propagandists. They have done one heck of a job on you Ray. Where were
you when Jack was presenting you with all of the evidence that blows these
lies to pieces? With respect I really do suggest it is time you take your
gas tinted spectacles off and do some serious research into this. Until you
have done so then I hardly think you are in a position to make such
judgements as you have here.
Mike.
On 20/09/14 14:33, Rays1 wrote:
Now, I've respect for all and both here, and John T but, consider me as 'Joe
Public' for a second, ok?
From this 'devils advocate' position, you appear to be saying that all the
concentration camp evidence of decimated
and starved bodies (many even being bull-dozed into pits) - which all older
folks know of, - "was all edited and revamped
in Hollywood by Alfred Hitchcock". The archaeological, physical, human
bodily remains in purpose-built and intentionally ENGINEERED
gas ovens, and ALL photographic records which openly support and prove the
veracity of my relatives personal witness, should now be
instantly dismissed as just so much BS ...and just because you claim,....
"The film footage of allies entering the concentration camps
was all edited and revamped in Hollywood by Alfred Hitchcock"
Have you any idea how completely "NUTSO" that might sound to everyone else?
Just listen for a second, Ok?. I have family relatives that were amongst
those that actually entered those camps as part of
our army and who personally witnessed those atrocities on the ground - and
at that time. They told me that some American
officers were so utterly disgusted at what they witnessed that they simply
dragged out the nearest Nazi in charge and summarily
hung them on the spot. (Clearly a war crime too but, one of the few that
might be somewhat understandable?)
It was clear that some of ours did exactly the same
My wifes Grandad experienced both world wars - sadly, died at 95yrs -...Am
I, or the public at large, supposed to
abruptly drop our life beliefs and our loved ones honest testimony to us as
'delusions' and instead embrace your text?
So, my relatives lied to me, did they ?!.. their senses somehow betrayed
them and they were simply unaware that they were
in fact, taking an unwitting part in........film footage of allies entering
the concentration camps was all edited and revamped in
Hollywood by Alfred Hitchcock.."
Oh, I see!...So they were all 'deluded' and did not realise that all their
tramping and fighting across France for weeks on end
beforehand was actually doing no more than playing a bit part in a Hollywood
plot devised by Alfred Hitchcock?!!....Really...?
Oh, Give me a break.
Ray
From: patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of john TIMBRELL
Sent: 20 September 2014 08:08
To: cpead@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: patriots@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [patriots] Re: News re Holocaust
Thanks for your reply Chris. Have you any knowledge of the cotent of the
film which would contradict my suspicion which is, that the film showed the
true position of the camps.i.e no gas chambers and that the piles of bodies
were the result of starvation and disease.
I suspect the Jews knew this and stopped it's circulation.
If I am right I suspect they will try and stop it's transmission and it will
need people like yourself to force it's transmission.
There was another reel of film which Hitchcock did not use.
If the Imperial War Museum did an unbiased job of restoring the film and
including the added reel then it may show some true light on the subject and
awaken the present public to the lies spread by the Jews and now supported
by Cameron. JohnT
_____
From: cpead@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To: johntimbrell@xxxxxxxxxx; patriots@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [patriots] Re: News re Holocaust
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:08:34 +0100
Hello John,
The film footage of allies entering the concentration camps was all edited
and revamped in Hollywood by Alfred Hitchcock, including the wheeling of
dead Germans to passed off as Jews see attached file - Chris
From: patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:patriots-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of john TIMBRELL
Sent: 18 September 2014 08:45
To: patriots@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [patriots] News re Holocaust
BBC radio 4 0815 + 18th Sept. Hear now on iPlayer.
Review of previously unshown film restored at the British war museum.
This is material filmed by ordinary people but specially trained as
cameramen who accompanied soldiers as they entered the concentration camps.
The material was collated by Alfred Hitchcock but was never shown in a
completed form. No reason given as yet.
The reviewer said there were heaps of bodies and people in a terrible state.
A decision was made to keep the people within the camps to feed them because
there was no food outside the camps. Plus the camps were riddled with typhus
and they did not wish the disease to be spread outside the camps.
I'm unsure of the following. The man commissioning the film was named
Bernstein. Perhaps he was the person who decided not to show the film. JohnT
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