[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:24:00 -0800
Gad, Phil, "This is a rationalization"? Good grief. I have studied the
early years of the church. Almost nothing is known. You make a statement
about the early church. Do you authenticate it? Do you cite a reference?
Do I criticize you for making unfounded statements?
But when I generalize from what is known, namely that many of the early
emperors persecuted the church, and therefore it isn't unreasonable that
Christians would oppose supporting that activity (that is, oppose being in
the Army that was doing the persecuting), you say "that is a
rationalization," and follow it with an alternative that strikes me as
rationalizing your own pacifistic prejudices in an extremely questionable
fashion.
You assume a Christian would be abandoning his religion by going into the
Army. Do Christians today do that? Did Christians in any historical (a
period for which written history is available) do that? Is there any
evidence that Christians in the period for which you have special insight,
the first three centuries, do that?
And then your suggestion, begging the question, that original Christianity
was pacifistic and if subsequent Christians joined the Army, a remnant
didn't. But why not find out what Jesus told his disciples before he left
them. At the Last Supper, he asked them, "When I sent you without purse,
bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"'Nothing,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and
if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: "And
he was numbered with the transgressors"; and I tell you that this must be
fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its
fulfillment.'
"The disciples said, 'See, Lord, here are two swords.'
"'That is enough,' he replied."
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Phil Enns
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 2:27 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Lawrence Helm wrote:
"[The Early Church is] the period of the church that we know least about.
But it is reasonable that Christians would be discouraged by the Church from
joining the Army during the reigns of Emperors bent upon wiping them out.
As soon as Christianity was legitimized however, Christians were in the
Roman Armies in enormous numbers."
This is a rationalization. To respond in kind, being tempted by the power
of empire, it is reasonable that Christians would abandon their original
beliefs and take up the sword. However, there would always remain a remnant
that would hold fast to the original teachings of Christ. Some among those
who had been seduced by the power of empire would even claim that being a
remnant was evidence of being wrong, forgetting how Christ was abandoned by
his disciples to be left alone in the Garden.
Sincerely,
well kinda,
Phil Enns
Glen Haven, NS
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