[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 23:04:43 -0800
Perhaps there is someone on Lit-Ideas who reads as much as I do, but I don't
personally know anyone who does, and yet people who don't read as much as I
do regularly challenge how much I do read, or understand, or know. You say,
"I just don't know what you know." People who know me really well wonder
why I study so much. Some people seeing my house and the size of my study
and my library and observing how I spend my time often look nonplussed, "but
what do you do?" They can't understand and tell them, "I am spending my
retirement exactly the way I want to by studying and writing." They don't
understand.
In regard to your question, I spent much of an eight year period studying
Christian theology -- between 1978 and 1986 roughly but I continued on at a
lesser level after that. I was in a few Christian discussion groups at the
time. As to my level of understanding? A professor from a major seminary
(involved in one of our discussion groups) challenged my motives. Why was I
studying so much. He said my level of understanding was comparable to
students of his he advised to teach rather than preach; so why was I
studying so much? As you know, I get that a lot. Not that everyone
approved of my level of understanding. A Lutheran theologian named Kevin
Guillory called me a heretic after a discussion on the differences between
Calvinism and Lutheranism. A professor of Church history noted that we
covered all the points covered in the Marburg debate. Guillory called this
professor a heretic as well by the way.
As to the way I study . . . much earlier, perhaps back about 1961 or 62 I
was taking a graduate course in Elizabethan non-Dramatic poetry. I was
fairly disgusted with my class mates who weren't as interested in the
subject as I was and at the end of the semester the professor apologized for
not challenging me, and she was right. I could study better on my own than
I could in a class and I never took another one. So, I never went to
seminary and yet would probably hold my own with seminary graduates insofar
as Biblical Studies, Theology, Hebrew and Christian History and
Hermeneutics. I didn't bother with homiletics and my reading comprehension
of Koine Greek was marginal. My comprehension of Hebrew was minimal.
In regard to the Koran and Sunnah I discovered that very little in the way
of commentary was translated into English. I got what I could find, but I
also read some scholars, and Islamists who feel they can write without being
scholars - such as Sayyid Qutb who wrote a commentary on the Koran called In
the Shadow of the Koran. If anyone is interested in understanding Islamic
theology insofar as the modern world is concerned, I would recommend Khaled
Abou El Fadl's The Great Theft, Wrestling Islam from the Extremists.
Insofar as your Biblical Analysis is concerned, you seem to take a
Literalist or Fundamentalist approach in order to be dismissive of
Christianity. The slapping of the cheek was considered an insult, not a
personal attack. To understand what is being taught by Jesus, you need to
understand the customs and history - or have someone explain it to you.
This is not a pacifistic teaching. Jesus is teaching that we should not
respond angrily to insults. Since Jesus allowed himself to be insulted far
more than any of us is likely to be, shall we take offense at the insults we
receive? Is a servant more important than his master? We are encouraged to
use Jesus as our example, Jesus "Who, being in very nature God, did not
consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself
nothing, taking the very nature of a servant. . . Phil 2:6-7.
As to how close to Jesus behavior we are urged to come, he said, "be ye holy
as your heavenly father is holy." The standard we are held to his Godly
perfection, but humans can't achieve this perfection. In 1 John 1:8 we
read, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is
not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive
us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not
sinned, we make him out to be a liar and the word has no place in our
lives." So your standard of perfection is God's as well, but you reject the
Church because you don't see perfect members. Jesus on the other hand
accepted imperfect disciples and imperfect followers. It is through a
relationship with Jesus Christ (not individual perfection) that we achieve
the oneness he prayed for in John 17: ". . . I pray also for those who will
believe in me through their [his disciples'] message, that all of them may
be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. . . ."
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Mike Geary
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 8:51 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
LH:
>>Gad, Andreas, you are sounding just like an Islamist! I have studied both
>>Christian Theology and to a lesser extent Islamic Theology and there is no
>>comparison.<<
I've never studied Islamic Theology. I've read some articles, that's about
it. All were written by Westerners and were mostly very sympathetic to
Islam as a religion of deep reverence for life and intense spirituality --
which seems to contradict most of what you write. But then I don't know.
When do you find the time do all these studies, Lawrence? Which mullahs
have you discussed contested passages of the Koran with? How many years
have you devoted to the study of Arabic so that you can understand the
cultural context of Islam? I'm asking because I don't know. Perhaps you
think that's not necessary. Perhaps you also think you understand French
culture as well as you understand Islam. I just don't know what you know.
>>Christianity is a religion of belief, of emulating the perfect son of God,
>>of wrestling with ones motivation and trying to get it right, but
>>accepting forgiveness when one doesn't. It is not a religion of violence
>>or anger. The Christian should turn the other cheek if insulted.<<
"Insulted"? That's not what my Bible says. It says:"But I say unto you,
That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek,
turn to him the other also." (Matt 5:39) And then there's this: "But I tell
you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate
you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
And this: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your
soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.' All the law
and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Mathew 22:37-40 And
this: "And if any man will sue thee, and take away thy coat, let him have
thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him
twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
turn not thou away.
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and
hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, pray for them that
persecute you, that ye may be the children of your Father which is in
heaven, for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and
sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love
you, what reward have ye? do not even the tax-gatherers the same? And if ye
salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the
Gentiles so? And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what gain
have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But
love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return;
and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Most
High: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye merciful, as
your Father also is merciful."
That's what Christ, "the perfect son of God", is reported to have said.
At least that's what my "study" of Christian theology tells me Christianity
is all about. Faith? Baby, you've got to have a shitload of faith to
follow those prescripts. So yes, Lawrence, you're right, Christianity is
not a religion of violence and anger. It's a religion of unqualified
non-violence and unconditional love. Unfortunately Christianity has never
been practiced. It's only been believed by a few sacred fools. So please
don't try to push the travesty we know as "Christianity" on us as some
superior way of being. That "Christianity" has been and is still being used
to justify hatreds and hostilities and pretexts for murder. It is still as
blood-thirsty as all the other power players in the world. That's not to
say that Christianity is not still out there. So is Islam and so is Islam
as loving and caring and totally devoted to spiritual awareness as
Christianity. So also is there an "Islam". Study more, Lawrence. Study
Christianity, not "Christianity". Study Islam, not "Islam". Then come talk
to me.
Mike Geary
citing Scripture for my purpose,
an evil soul producing holy witness
in Memphis
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