[lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!

From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "lit-ideas" <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:36:57 -0500
> [Original Message]
> From: Veronica Caley <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 11/14/2005 3:08:28 PM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
>
> Veronica: So, what does all this prove? Nothing, except that we are all
> beneficiaries or victims of history. 
>
> A.A. So why bring it up?
>
> V.C. I was responding to your comment re taking homes, etc., etc., which
> came across to me that you were justifying suicide bombing of civilians in
> Israel and in Iraq.  


A.A. I'm not responsible for people's perceptions and unbidden conclusions.
To suggest that I would justify suicide bombings or any other kinds of
bombings is someone else's insanity.  It has nothing to do with me. 



V.C.  And if you want to do that, it's ok, but you can't
> have it both ways.  


A.A.  Say something relevant to respond to.



My issue was not who is right or wrong, but who are the
> targets of the suicide bombings.
>


A.A.  The two are inseparable.  And both sides are wrong.




> A.A. I'm not defending the intifada.  I'm just looking at it from their
> point of view.  The most common point of view is that they're pure evil,
we
> approach divine.  You like that?
>
> V.C. My take on what you have written is that it's ok if there is a
> justifiable reason.  


A.A. But that's your take, not my statements.  I'm not responsible for your
take.



I have also been following the other thread re Iraq
> and I don't see that anyone thinks that the suicide bombers are
> (insurgents) pure evil and US approaches the divine.  


A.A.  How would you characterize an argument that revolves around their
goal being the targeting of civilians (their goal, mind you), and ours the
targeting only of insurgents.  Marlena even said to the effect of that our
boys sacrifice themselves for the Iraqis.  Sacrificing his life is
something the Christian God did.  Sounds pretty divine to me.



What I get out of it
> is that there are degrees of evil here, justified on the same basis that
> you use: namely, a good reason. This being, the US wants to rebuild Iraq
> and they and the insurgents are willing to destroy civilians if that's
what
> it takes to get US troops out, or get the place rebuilt.


The U.S. has no business sticking its face into other people's business. 
If they want us out, we should leave.  If they want us out and we insist on
helping them, that's called trespass.  Also known as invasion.  


>
> Andy's solution to the problem: Montana for the Jews.
>
> V.C. I'm ok with this.  I don't know if the US government is, the
residents
> of Montana are or the Jews.  


A.A.  Ah, but who asked the Palestinians if they wanted to give up their
homeland?



V.C.  This is totally untenable.  


A.A.  Only if it's in our back yard.  It's totally tenable for the
Palestinians.



Montana is holy
> land only to the Native Americans.  


A.A. And Palestine was the homeland of the Palestinians.



Actually, I read somewhere a long time
> ago that after WWII the Jews were offered a part of Germany.  This is of
> course totally silly.  Put the remnants of European Jews back in the lions
> den.  But right up there with Montana.  
>

A.A. You've given no reason why Montana won't work except that for some
reason you don't think it would work.  NIMBY is I think the slogan for
that.  



> A.A. So throw out one group and give it to the other.
>
> V.C. I think we already discussed this.  And see above re Montana, etc.
>


A.A.  Yes, to recap, it's okay to steal one set of lands but not another,
the reason being the other set of lands is my backyard so stay out.



> A.A. Israel is a democracy in your dreams.
>
> V.C. Really?  Then why is Israel so afraid of the "demographic time
bomb?" 
> I used democracy here in relative terms.  Though the Arabs in Israel are a
> minority, they do have representatives in the parliamentary body and full
> access to the courts.  By the way, wasn't it the Israeli Supreme Court
that
> outlawed torture?  Yes, it did.  Now look at the rest of the Arab world. 
I
> assumed we all subscribe to the idea that US, UK, and other democracies
and
> republics are only relatively free.  After all, they all have the power to
> imprison and execute one, although no longer the latter in the EU
> countries.  I guess the test of this is what countries in the world one
> would want to go to if she had to leave her current country of residence.
>


A.A. A while ago I posted this link on the origins of Israel.  Israel has
no legal right to exist.  It was pointed out that even Einstein turned down
the presidency of Israel on this basis when it was offered to him.

http://www.motherbird.com/zionism.html




> A.A. George Bush fucked this country too.  Are you outraged about that?
>
> V.C. Absolutely.  So much so that despite physical impairment, I walked
and
> walked and talked and talked and had meetings in my home prior to the last
> presidential election.
> Also, I have put my money where my mouth is.  Big time, not nickels and
> dimes.
>

A.A. It's good that you're outraged.  But the point was that when we point
one finger at somebody, we have four fingers pointing back at us.  



> A.A. Yeah, sure, those helpful, civilized, caring Europeans.  Gotta love
> 'em.  Except maybe when they sort of looked the other way in Bosnia.
>
>
> V.C. Agreed.  Credit to Clinton for that one and shame on Europeans for
not
> doing it themselves, under UN auspices.  And shame on Muslims everywhere
> who say that the whole Western world is attacking them because they are
> Muslims.  It was the Muslims who were rescued in Kosovo and Bosnia.  And
> they do their own holocaust in Darfur, on each other no less. 
>


A.A.  The Muslims are jerks too, no doubt about it.  But that doesn't give
anybody the right to take their homeland and get righteous about it.



> A.A. It's how wealth originates.  How do you think the English monarchy
got
> all those jewels and palaces?
>
> V.C. First, it's not always true. (Warren Buffet, Bill Gates.) 


A.A.  Historically it's true.    


But in any
> case, this is a diversion.  The issue is that governments and peoples
> around the world wanted to help Palestinians and their leaders robbed
them.


A.A. Forgetting about how they lost their homeland in the first place.



> Yes, I know, Haliburton is robbing us too.  See above re working on
> elections, contributing money, etc., etc.


A.A. But if the robbery was the loss of your home, I doubt this would
suffice.  Especially if you have to sleep in a tent while someone lives in
your house.


>
> A.A. Or try something different, like looking at both sides instead of
> convincing one's self of one's supremacy.
>
> V.C. I believe I do this.  You are entitled to disagree.  But let me tell
> you why I care what happens in the Middle East.  There has been no weapon
> ever invented that has not been used, except the hydrogen and the neutron
> bombs.  It is my belief that sooner or later, if some kind of
accommodation
> is not reached by people in the Middle East, and especially in
> Palestine/Israel, the Israelis or Arab countries with nuclear weapons will
> have their bomb exchanges.  And then suicide bombing is going to look like
> child's play.  I don't buy any of this negotiations stuff with Iran.  I
> expect Iran to have nuclear weapons in the near future.
>


A.A.  Except that by not seeing the other guy's side, escalation is
guaranteed.  The *only* way out is win/win.  Win/lose is a formula for
disaster, especially with today's weapons.  Check out Iraq if you need
proof.


Andy Amago



> Veronica
>
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>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Andy Amago <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 11/12/2005 1:19:56 PM
> > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Veronica Caley <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Date: 11/12/2005 11:39:53 AM
> > > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
> > >
> > > Andy:Ask yourself how you would feel if somebody threw you
> > > out of your house and took it for themselves while you had to live in
a
> > > tent for refuges. Personally, I'd be pissed. Maybe even more than
> pissed.
> > > Probably a lot more than pissed.
> > >
> > > I would be more than pissed, and was: when the Nazis came into my
former
> > > country and basically started terrorizing my neighbors, when the
> Russians
> > > came to liberate from the Nazis and then proceeded to establish their
> own
> > > dictatorship and terrorized the neighbors and just about everyone
else.
> > >
> > > So, what does all this prove?  Nothing, except that we are all
> > > beneficiaries or victims of history.  
> >
> >
> > A.A. So why bring it up?
> >
> >
> >
> > Defend away at the intifada but
> > > consider.  
> >
> >
> > A.A. I'm not defending the intifada.  I'm just looking at it from their
> > point of view.  The most common point of view is that they're pure evil,
> we
> > approach divine.  You like that?
> >
> >
> >
> > The intifada has now been to some degree globalized, as I heard
> > > a Palestinian say a few years ago it ought to be.  If you approve of
> > > suicide bombing in Israel,
> >
> >
> >
> > A.A.  I never said I approved of suicide bombings in Israel or
anywhere. 
> > Suicide bombings are anathema.
> >
> >
> >
> >  you must approve of it in Europe and elsewhere. 
> > > Attacking civilians is attacking civilians.  Everyone who does it has
a
> > > 'good' reason.  They all just want to pick their reasons.
> > >
> >
> >
> > A.A.  Well said. 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > What solution would you have come up with after the British promised
the
> > > Israelis a homeland? 
> >
> >
> >
> > A.A.  I already told you.  Montana.  Nobody lives there except
militias. 
> > They'd be a piece of cake compared to the Palestinians.  The few people
> who
> > live in Montana can be sent to Michigan.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  The Arabs did not do to the Jews what the Europeans
> > > did but there you are.  It happens to be the ancestral homeland to
both
> > > peoples.  
> >
> >
> > A.A. So throw out one group and give it to the other.
> >
> >
> >
> > And consider this: the only Arabs to live in a democracy in the
> > > Middle East are the those that reside in Israel.  
> >
> >
> > A.A. Israel is a democracy in your dreams.
> >
> >
> >
> > So evidently they weren't
> > > all removed.  It seems like some million or so of them decided to stay
> > > hoping for a better life which they must believe they have or they
would
> > > leave now.
> > >
> >
> >
> > A.A. Indeed, hope springs eternal.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > The refugee camps have been preserved and nurtured to use as future
> > > bargaining chips and warriors by their own leaders.  
> >
> >
> >
> > A.A. George Bush fucked this country too.  Are you outraged about that?
> >
> >
> >
> > Their leaders have
> > > squandered enormous amounts of money donated by European governments,
> the
> > > US government and millions of individuals who care about them. 
> >
> >
> > A.A. Yeah, sure, those helpful, civilized, caring Europeans.  Gotta love
> > 'em.  Except maybe when they sort of looked the other way in Bosnia.
> >
> >
> >
> > Their leader
> > > have also made themselves enormously rich at the expense of these poor
> > > people.
> >
> >
> > A.A. It's how wealth originates.  How do you think the English monarchy
> got
> > all those jewels and palaces?
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Now then, this has been the history of humanity for as long as we have
> > > known about ourselves.  So now, the rest of us in North America, other
> > than
> > > native Americans and native Canadians, ought to either shut up or go
> back
> > > where we came from, or where our ancestors came from.
> > >
> >
> >
> > A.A. Or try something different, like looking at both sides instead of
> > convincing one's self of one's supremacy.
> >
> >
> > Andy Amago
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Veronica
> > > Milford, MI 
> > >
> > >
> > >
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[lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!

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