[lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!

From: "Veronica Caley" <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:08:22 -0500
Veronica: So, what does all this prove? Nothing, except that we are all
beneficiaries or victims of history. 

A.A. So why bring it up?

V.C. I was responding to your comment re taking homes, etc., etc., which
came across to me that you were justifying suicide bombing of civilians in
Israel and in Iraq.  And if you want to do that, it's ok, but you can't
have it both ways.  My issue was not who is right or wrong, but who are the
targets of the suicide bombings.

A.A. I'm not defending the intifada.  I'm just looking at it from their
point of view.  The most common point of view is that they're pure evil, we
approach divine.  You like that?

V.C. My take on what you have written is that it's ok if there is a
justifiable reason.  I have also been following the other thread re Iraq
and I don't see that anyone thinks that the suicide bombers are
(insurgents) pure evil and US approaches the divine.  What I get out of it
is that there are degrees of evil here, justified on the same basis that
you use: namely, a good reason. This being, the US wants to rebuild Iraq
and they and the insurgents are willing to destroy civilians if that's what
it takes to get US troops out, or get the place rebuilt.

Andy's solution to the problem: Montana for the Jews.

V.C. I'm ok with this.  I don't know if the US government is, the residents
of Montana are or the Jews.  This is totally untenable.  Montana is holy
land only to the Native Americans.  Actually, I read somewhere a long time
ago that after WWII the Jews were offered a part of Germany.  This is of
course totally silly.  Put the remnants of European Jews back in the lions
den.  But right up there with Montana.  

A.A. So throw out one group and give it to the other.

V.C. I think we already discussed this.  And see above re Montana, etc.

A.A. Israel is a democracy in your dreams.

V.C. Really?  Then why is Israel so afraid of the "demographic time bomb?" 
I used democracy here in relative terms.  Though the Arabs in Israel are a
minority, they do have representatives in the parliamentary body and full
access to the courts.  By the way, wasn't it the Israeli Supreme Court that
outlawed torture?  Yes, it did.  Now look at the rest of the Arab world.  I
assumed we all subscribe to the idea that US, UK, and other democracies and
republics are only relatively free.  After all, they all have the power to
imprison and execute one, although no longer the latter in the EU
countries.  I guess the test of this is what countries in the world one
would want to go to if she had to leave her current country of residence.

A.A. George Bush fucked this country too.  Are you outraged about that?

V.C. Absolutely.  So much so that despite physical impairment, I walked and
walked and talked and talked and had meetings in my home prior to the last
presidential election.
Also, I have put my money where my mouth is.  Big time, not nickels and
dimes.

A.A. Yeah, sure, those helpful, civilized, caring Europeans.  Gotta love
'em.  Except maybe when they sort of looked the other way in Bosnia.


V.C. Agreed.  Credit to Clinton for that one and shame on Europeans for not
doing it themselves, under UN auspices.  And shame on Muslims everywhere
who say that the whole Western world is attacking them because they are
Muslims.  It was the Muslims who were rescued in Kosovo and Bosnia.  And
they do their own holocaust in Darfur, on each other no less. 

A.A. It's how wealth originates.  How do you think the English monarchy got
all those jewels and palaces?

V.C. First, it's not always true. (Warren Buffet, Bill Gates.) But in any
case, this is a diversion.  The issue is that governments and peoples
around the world wanted to help Palestinians and their leaders robbed them.
Yes, I know, Haliburton is robbing us too.  See above re working on
elections, contributing money, etc., etc.

A.A. Or try something different, like looking at both sides instead of
convincing one's self of one's supremacy.

V.C. I believe I do this.  You are entitled to disagree.  But let me tell
you why I care what happens in the Middle East.  There has been no weapon
ever invented that has not been used, except the hydrogen and the neutron
bombs.  It is my belief that sooner or later, if some kind of accommodation
is not reached by people in the Middle East, and especially in
Palestine/Israel, the Israelis or Arab countries with nuclear weapons will
have their bomb exchanges.  And then suicide bombing is going to look like
child's play.  I don't buy any of this negotiations stuff with Iran.  I
expect Iran to have nuclear weapons in the near future.

Veronica





















> [Original Message]
> From: Andy Amago <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 11/12/2005 1:19:56 PM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Veronica Caley <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 11/12/2005 11:39:53 AM
> > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
> >
> > Andy:Ask yourself how you would feel if somebody threw you
> > out of your house and took it for themselves while you had to live in a
> > tent for refuges. Personally, I'd be pissed. Maybe even more than
pissed.
> > Probably a lot more than pissed.
> >
> > I would be more than pissed, and was: when the Nazis came into my former
> > country and basically started terrorizing my neighbors, when the
Russians
> > came to liberate from the Nazis and then proceeded to establish their
own
> > dictatorship and terrorized the neighbors and just about everyone else.
> >
> > So, what does all this prove?  Nothing, except that we are all
> > beneficiaries or victims of history.  
>
>
> A.A. So why bring it up?
>
>
>
> Defend away at the intifada but
> > consider.  
>
>
> A.A. I'm not defending the intifada.  I'm just looking at it from their
> point of view.  The most common point of view is that they're pure evil,
we
> approach divine.  You like that?
>
>
>
> The intifada has now been to some degree globalized, as I heard
> > a Palestinian say a few years ago it ought to be.  If you approve of
> > suicide bombing in Israel,
>
>
>
> A.A.  I never said I approved of suicide bombings in Israel or anywhere. 
> Suicide bombings are anathema.
>
>
>
>  you must approve of it in Europe and elsewhere. 
> > Attacking civilians is attacking civilians.  Everyone who does it has a
> > 'good' reason.  They all just want to pick their reasons.
> >
>
>
> A.A.  Well said. 
>
>
>
>
> > What solution would you have come up with after the British promised the
> > Israelis a homeland? 
>
>
>
> A.A.  I already told you.  Montana.  Nobody lives there except militias. 
> They'd be a piece of cake compared to the Palestinians.  The few people
who
> live in Montana can be sent to Michigan.
>
>
>
>
>  The Arabs did not do to the Jews what the Europeans
> > did but there you are.  It happens to be the ancestral homeland to both
> > peoples.  
>
>
> A.A. So throw out one group and give it to the other.
>
>
>
> And consider this: the only Arabs to live in a democracy in the
> > Middle East are the those that reside in Israel.  
>
>
> A.A. Israel is a democracy in your dreams.
>
>
>
> So evidently they weren't
> > all removed.  It seems like some million or so of them decided to stay
> > hoping for a better life which they must believe they have or they would
> > leave now.
> >
>
>
> A.A. Indeed, hope springs eternal.
>
>
>
>
> > The refugee camps have been preserved and nurtured to use as future
> > bargaining chips and warriors by their own leaders.  
>
>
>
> A.A. George Bush fucked this country too.  Are you outraged about that?
>
>
>
> Their leaders have
> > squandered enormous amounts of money donated by European governments,
the
> > US government and millions of individuals who care about them. 
>
>
> A.A. Yeah, sure, those helpful, civilized, caring Europeans.  Gotta love
> 'em.  Except maybe when they sort of looked the other way in Bosnia.
>
>
>
> Their leader
> > have also made themselves enormously rich at the expense of these poor
> > people.
>
>
> A.A. It's how wealth originates.  How do you think the English monarchy
got
> all those jewels and palaces?
>
>
>
> >
> > Now then, this has been the history of humanity for as long as we have
> > known about ourselves.  So now, the rest of us in North America, other
> than
> > native Americans and native Canadians, ought to either shut up or go
back
> > where we came from, or where our ancestors came from.
> >
>
>
> A.A. Or try something different, like looking at both sides instead of
> convincing one's self of one's supremacy.
>
>
> Andy Amago
>
>
>
>
> > Veronica
> > Milford, MI 
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
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