[lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!

From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:29:33 -0500
> [Original Message]
> From: Veronica Caley <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 11/21/2005 12:58:44 PM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
>
> Andy: what specifically gives you the
> impression that I have tolerance for suicide bombings? I said they're
> anathema. It's just about the worst thing I can imagine. Where do you get
> the idea that I tolerate it? 
>
> V.C. In the discussion re Iraq you keep bringing up the issue of the
> suicide bombers defending against an illegal invasion and occupation.  We
> all agree to the illegality of the occupation.  That leaves us with
> the question in hand, which is how ought Iraqis respond.  


###A.A.  They use violence to solve problems.  But what did the Americans
do?  They used violence to a  problem.  The Americans even manufactured a
problem so they could solve it with violence, with shock and awe.  The U.S.
proved to the Iraqis that violence is the way to do things.  NPR did a
short thing on the soldiers over there.  One American soldier took a child
who [I missed it, did something wrong] and grabbed him and pulled down his
pants in front of others and spanked him, saying if it's good enough for
his kids ...  Then you want the Iraqis to respond nonviolently.  That's
either expecting them to be better than us, or it's hypocrisy.



If you don't
> outright say it, you imply that it is a valid response to the invasion. 
> The key word is imply.  


###A.A. You keep repeating that I condone suicide bombing, that it's your
impression and you stand by it.  I refuse to defend myself on something
that is your fantasy.  



Then we get into the Israeli occupation and the
> same situation.  Illegal occupation, suicide bombing of civilians.  As you
> said, it's my impression.  I stick with it. 


###A.A.  You insist that the Israelis are acting legally and ethically by
existing where they are.  Not a problem if you want to insist on it.



 I think of the little bit I
> know about the Resistance in Europe.  Nowhere have I read that these
> fighters targeted civilians, except collaborators.  Certainly not
children.
> There are different kinds of resistance.  Which, by the way, I understand
> and sympathize with, as opposed to suicide bombing of buses, etc. 



###A.A. Suicide bombings are terrible, horrible, beyond description.  But
you forget that violence grows, not shrinks.  One of the founders of Israel
planted a bomb in London and blew up, among others, Jews.  He used violence
to get what he needed.  What do you say to that?  Since then, violence is
more sophisticated and more pervasive.  It's grown.


 
> ***A.A. And it will continue to lead them nowhere except to ever
escalating
> violence. 
>
> V.C.Exactly.  More and more killing and training up of children to hate,
> ensuring that it will continue.
>


###A.A. Let me guess.  The Israelis bring up their children to be peace
loving and not hate the Arabs.  Jews I know and have known here in the U.S.
are rabid racists.  Not all of them, but many.  Some rejoice at the thought
of getting rid of the Palestinians.  So, you're right.  It will continue.



> Andy: I'm also an atheist so I have a hard time finding sympathy for
people
> who insist on dying for a religion. They're entitled
>
> V.C.I'm glad to hear that you are not seduced by the promise of 72 virgins
> in exchange for your life.  


###A.A.  Like responding to being thrown out of your home and having it
occupied by someone while you live in a tent by comparing it to identity
theft.  The virgins are crap, Veronica.  Nobody dies for virgins.  Nobody. 
In fact, I was reading recently (Newsweek I think) that the motivation for
suicide bombings is suicide.  Islam forbids suicide so people use it as a
way to commit suicide and be loved in the bargain, sometimes for the first
time in their lives.  Suicide bombings have NOTHING to do with virgins. 



Perhaps that's more of a bait than love of God.
> Actually, I think religion is only a small part of it in my opinion.  
> Wealth and pride and demand for self government and a nation of their own
> is more the motive.  


###A.A.  Why don't they have a nation of their own?



I heard a Palestinian psychiatrist say once that most
> of these young people have seen their fathers either killed or
humiliated. 
> I believe it.  


###A.A. And likewise I heard a (serious) discussion that Bush, et al. are a
bunch of femiphobes, caused by distant fathers.  These guys now have to
prove themselves macho men, so they started a war, even called it shock and
awe.  They wanted awe.  I am not at all being facetious.  If distant
fathers can cause this, what effect must seeing your father killed or
humiliated have?  How do you know these boys aren't expiating their
fathers, perhaps even following in their footsteps out of love or guilt or
whatever?  Do you still think they're chasing after virgins?



But it's really interesting how little revenge seeking there
> was after the Holocaust.
>


###A.A.  Shock may have entered into it.  These are God's Chosen.  Where
was God in allowing this?  These are complex issues again that you're
simplifying into Arabs bad/Jews good.  If that's how you see the world,
then that's how you see the world.  It's also why violence escalates,
because people don't see or change positions until they have to.  I get the
feeling you talk to a lot of like minded people, and when someone comes up
with an uncomfortable idea, you reject it by telling them they support
suicide bombers.  




> A. A. By definition our boys are killing civilians.
>
> Yes, which is one of many good reasons why US ought to have continued with
> the inspectors.  For decades if need be.  
>
>


###A.A. But we didn't.  We did violence.  Horrible violence.  Cheney wants
to use torture.   And we tsk tsk when the other side does horrible
violence.  



> ***A.A. This is exactly what's going on in the Middle East. It will never
> end. Only escalate.
>  
> V.C. I hope not and think not.  Seems to me that Tom Friedman has a good
> point.  Both peoples have to have a civil war and then they can settle up
> with each other.  There is no question that both peoples are tired.  
>


###A.A.  It's good you're so optimistic.  Maybe you see war as cathartic
and cleansing.  A way to solve problems.  A lot of Americans will agree
with you.



> Andy: The point is that
> Americans think they're that righteous and good.
>
> V.C. True.  And which country doesn't?
>


###A.A. So you're saying we're the same as them.  Finally, some agreement,
except it contradicts your above statements.



Andy Amago



>
> Veronica
>
>
>
>
>
>


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[lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!

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