[lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!

From: "Veronica Caley" <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:57:55 -0500
Andy: what specifically gives you the
impression that I have tolerance for suicide bombings? I said they're
anathema. It's just about the worst thing I can imagine. Where do you get
the idea that I tolerate it? 

V.C. In the discussion re Iraq you keep bringing up the issue of the
suicide bombers defending against an illegal invasion and occupation.  We
all agree to the illegality of the occupation.  That leaves us with
the question in hand, which is how ought Iraqis respond.  If you don't
outright say it, you imply that it is a valid response to the invasion. 
The key word is imply.  Then we get into the Israeli occupation and the
same situation.  Illegal occupation, suicide bombing of civilians.  As you
said, it's my impression.  I stick with it.  I think of the little bit I
know about the Resistance in Europe.  Nowhere have I read that these
fighters targeted civilians, except collaborators.  Certainly not children.
There are different kinds of resistance.  Which, by the way, I understand
and sympathize with, as opposed to suicide bombing of buses, etc.  
***A.A. And it will continue to lead them nowhere except to ever escalating
violence. 

V.C.Exactly.  More and more killing and training up of children to hate,
ensuring that it will continue.

Andy: I'm also an atheist so I have a hard time finding sympathy for people
who insist on dying for a religion. They're entitled

V.C.I'm glad to hear that you are not seduced by the promise of 72 virgins
in exchange for your life.  Perhaps that's more of a bait than love of God.
Actually, I think religion is only a small part of it in my opinion.  
Wealth and pride and demand for self government and a nation of their own
is more the motive.  I heard a Palestinian psychiatrist say once that most
of these young people have seen their fathers either killed or humiliated. 
I believe it.  But it's really interesting how little revenge seeking there
was after the Holocaust.

A. A. By definition our boys are killing civilians.

Yes, which is one of many good reasons why US ought to have continued with
the inspectors.  For decades if need be.  


***A.A. This is exactly what's going on in the Middle East. It will never
end. Only escalate.
 
V.C. I hope not and think not.  Seems to me that Tom Friedman has a good
point.  Both peoples have to have a civil war and then they can settle up
with each other.  There is no question that both peoples are tired.  

Andy: The point is that
Americans think they're that righteous and good.

V.C. True.  And which country doesn't?

My apologies for responding so late.  My life has transmogrified into
Julie's and I don't even have kids in the house.

Thank you so much to Robert Paul for tips on googling and Mike Geary for
providing sites.  It saved me a lot of time when I needed it most. 

Veronica









> [Original Message]
> From: Andy Amago <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: lit-ideas <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 11/17/2005 1:37:49 AM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Veronica Caley <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 11/16/2005 11:46:19 PM
> > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!
> >
> >
> > Andy: To suggest that I would justify suicide bombings or any other
kinds
> of
> > bombings is someone else's insanity.
> >
> > V.C. From the discussion I got the impression that you may not send
people
> > to do it but you have some tolerance for it if the reasons are good. 
You
> > are not responsible for people's impressions.  Never the less, I still
> > stand by my impression.
> >
>
>
> ***A.A.  Why stop there?  While you're at it, why not think of me as a
> chain saw murderer?  Just out of curiosity, what specifically gives you
the
> impression that I have tolerance for suicide bombings?  I said they're
> anathema.  It's just about the worst thing I can imagine.  Where do you
get
> the idea that I tolerate it?    
>
>
>
> > Andy:A.A. The two are inseparable. And both sides are wrong. (reasons
and
> > actions)
> >
> > V.C. This is very profound but it leads people in the Middle East
> nowhere. 
> > And what, pray tell, did the innocent bystanders do when a suicide
bomber
> > detonates himself?  Just as you properly get upset over the civilian
> > victims in Iraq.  It is also the case with aerial bombing, but almost no
> > one protests against that.
> >
>
>
> ***A.A. And it will continue to lead them nowhere except to ever
escalating
> violence.  As far as what they can do, heck, they can invest in kevlar and
> make some money.  I have no idea what they should do.  Personally, if it
> were me, I'd move.  I'm also an atheist so I have a hard time finding
> sympathy for people who insist on dying for a religion.  They're entitled
> to, certainly, if that's what they choose to do, but it's not a choice I'd
> make.  Especially with God's track record.
>
>
>
> > A.A. How would you characterize an argument that revolves around their
> > goal being the targeting of civilians (their goal, mind you), and ours
the
> > targeting only of insurgents. Marlena even said to the effect of that
our
> > boys sacrifice themselves for the Iraqis. Sacrificing his life is
> > something the Christian God did. Sounds pretty divine to me.
> >
> > V.C.All things considered, and with the objectives of US government,
it's
> > definitely better to target only insurgents.  The truth is, there is no
> way
> > to tell who is who.
>
>
> ***A.A. My point exactly.  By definition our boys are killing civilians.
>
>
>
> > Which is the genius of guerrilla warfare and the reason why all this
death
> > is for nothing because it can't be "won."  
>
>
> ***A.A. This is exactly what's going on in the Middle East.  It will never
> end.  Only escalate.
>
>
>
> It's not like the war for US
> > independence from the British.  Re American soldiers sacrificing
> themselves
> > for Iraqis is something I don't accept.  
>
>
> ***A.A. I think that was Marlena's fantasy.  Of course they're not
> sacrificing themselves.  Unless they're really weird.  The point is that
> Americans think they're that righteous and good.
>
>
>
> I am in real conflict re troops. 
> > On the one hand, I hear them say they are doing their jobs, which
reminds
> > of the defenses at Nuremburg, on the other hand I cry for their young
> lives
> > taken and mutilated.  The people responsible are the people in
Washington.
> >
>
>
> ***A.A. Definitely.  But I've listened to calls on CSPAN where callers
> fight tooth and nail for the right to "win" this war.  People are stupid,
> that's the bottom line.  It took a long time for most to even catch on
that
> Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism except to breed it and multiply it.
>
>
> >
> > A.A. Ah, but who asked the Palestinians if they wanted to give up their
> > homeland?  
> >
> > V.C.No one.  Palestine was a colony of Britain.  The establishment of
> > Israel was done in the UN.
> >
>
>
> ***A.A. Can you supply a source for this?
>
>
>
> > A.A. You've given no reason why Montana won't work except that for some
> > reason you don't think it would work. NIMBY is I think the slogan for
> > that. 
> >
> > V.C. I just don't believe that you can get any of the parties to agree
to
> > it.  For religious reasons, for territorial reasons.  I can't prove it
> > because I would have to poll all sides and I believe that to be
> impossible.
> > If Montana was an option, diplomats would have long ago worked on this. 
> At
> > least, it would have been presented to the American public to see how
they
> > might respond to it.
> >
>
>
> ***A.A. I was splitting the baby here and finding the real mother.  I know
> Montana would never work because of the NIMBY principle.  It's fine if the
> Palestinians are suffering.  But if we suffer, well, that's a different
> story.  As you have proven, we're not big sufferers.  We can support
> Israel, but only if it's convenient.  
>
>
>
> > A.A. So throw out one group and give it to the other.
> >
> > V.C. Terrible, so are you packing your bags yet so you can turn your
home,
> > etc. to Native Americans?  Or don't you consider that a land grab?  But
of
> > course, that is ok.
>
>
> ***A.A. So all of a sudden we're righteous about the Native Americans.  If
> we wanted the idea were to work, something could be worked out.  
>
>
>
> > This country is full of unhappy Native Americans who are, to this day,
the
> > victims of US government, regarding treaties and regard to lots of money
> > owed.
> >
>
> ***A.A. The government does owe them.  At this point they need
> opportunities going forward.  The past is gone.
>
>
>
> > A.A. A while ago I posted this link on the origins of Israel. Israel has
> > no legal right to exist. It was pointed out that even Einstein turned
down
> > the presidency of Israel on this basis when it was offered to him.
> >
> > V.C. I read this. It just shows the validity of my comment earlier that
we
> > are all either victims or beneficiaries of history.  My second
observation
> > is that the history of the Jews and the Palestinians differ widely, but
> the
> > article is substantially true.
> > I have never read that Irgun was a fascist group.  It was, in my
opinion,
> a
> > terrorist group in modern parlance, or a freedom fighter. This depends
on
> > the custom of the times.  And there is neither wish or grounds for
denying
> > the suffering of the Palestinians.  Just as a side comment, to
understand
> > why some Jews were so adamant at getting their own state, there is
> > virtually nowhere on earth where they were not, in one way or another,
> > severely abused if not killed.  The last, best time and place for Jews
was
> > 17th century Poland where they were invited into the country by the
king.
> > In my neighborhood, there used to be public swimming pools.  Before
WWII,
> > there was a sign there that said, "no dogs or Jews allowed."
> >
>
>
> ***AA. I agree with you, except that it's not 17th century but I think
14th
> or 15th century.  Regardless.  I feel extremely sorry for the Jews.  As an
> atheist I wonder why they continue to hang on to something that causes
such
> suffering.  What's the point?  Why do it?  
>
>
>
> > A.A. It's good that you're outraged. But the point was that when we
point
> > one finger at somebody, we have four fingers pointing back at us. 
> >
> > V.C. Yes, exactly.  But you didn't respond re leaving the US and giving
> the
> > country back to it's original owners.  That's because you don't want to
do
> > that. Neither do I.
>
>
> ***A.A. But I'm not the victim of suicide bombers either.  I told you
> already.  I'd move.   I gave up Christianity, so I'd have no trouble
giving
> up Judaism.  But that's me.  Others need to hang on to their religion and
> die for it.  That's their decision.    
>
>
>
> > So we do accept injustice but it's easier to condemn those who do it on
> the
> > other side of the world.  
> >
>
>
> ***A.A. My point exactly.  NIMBY.
>
>
>
> > A.A. The Muslims are jerks too, no doubt about it. But that doesn't give
> > anybody the right to take their homeland and get righteous about it.
> >
> > V.C. True.  So why didn't someone go to the aid of countries invaded by
> > Hitler until it was clear he was a menace to England as well.  Or,
Eastern
> > Europe when over run by Soviets,  Because justice comes at a high
price. 
> > Mirror, mirror the wall, whose land am I, you, they sitting on?
> >
>
> ***A.A. Don't know.  I think ultimately people need to get to the roots of
> war and stop it there.  Instead, people are not only not working on the
> roots, but their historical memories don't go past yesterday.  I read
> recently that war needs to happen every 25 or so years because
periodically
> people need to vent their rage.  I read a really interesting idea recently
> that the cabbage patch doll craze of the 80's, with adults buying the
> dolls, was an unconscious collective backlash to the killing of the
Vietnam
> War.  It was the adults who went crazy buying these things, paying
> thousands of dollars in some cases.  It was as if people were adopting
> these dead soldiers.  Sounds strange, I know, and I know a lot of people
> reject Koenigsberg-esq explanations for humanity's need, craving, for
war. 
> But I find it plausible.  I also think flocking behavior might have
> something to do with that and other crazes.  Mob mentality.  No real
reason
> for it.  Anyway, I thought it was an interesting idea, worth exploring. 
> Except that few will.  The thinking will stay stuck in the same old wheel
> spinning, machine gun blazing rut.
>
>
>
> > A.A. Forgetting about how they lost their homeland in the first place.
> >  
> > V.C. How can we forget?  They are in the news several times a week when
> one
> > sends a suicide bomber and the other one retaliates.
> >
>
> ***A.A. You're kidding right?  When was the last time you heard that
> another suicide bombing occurred because Israel unlawfully took
Palestinian
> land and homes?  It's always how evil the Palestinians are and how
> victimized the Jews are.  The fact is, they're both victims.  I think
> Ursula posted the Sumerian expression that if you take a man's land, he'll
> come and take your land.  That's exactly what's happening.  Wisdom that
> goes back 3,000 years is unheeded by us.
>
>
>
> > A.A. But if the robbery was the loss of your home, I doubt this would
> > suffice. Especially if you have to sleep in a tent while someone lives
in
> > your house.
> >
> > V.C.Actually, this happens here now and then, one at a time.  Some kind
of
> > mortgage fraud and identity theft.  And there is no justice for them
> > either.  
>
>
> ***A.A. I don't think you quite get what it must feel like to have to live
> in a tent while someone lives in your house.  I have a feeling all of this
> is just an abstraction.  
>
>
>
> One of the problems in the world is that millions of us believe in
> > absolute justice.  On a practical level, it is not attainable.  The
people
> > who have the ability to do it don't want to.  
>
>
> ***A.A. If that's the case, then they're evil.  I suspect there's not much
> they can do. Every president that I can remember worked on peace in the
> Middle East and it's only gotten worse.  Now the terrorism has spread to
> the U.S. and will spread more and more.  
>
>
>
> > A.A. Except that by not seeing the other guy's side, escalation is
> > guaranteed. The *only* way out is win/win. Win/lose is a formula for
> > disaster, especially with today's weapons. Check out Iraq if you need
> > proof.
> >
> > V.C. If I didn't see the other guy's side I would not be bothering with
> all
> > this.  It's because I do see it and I think both sides are heading for
> > disaster, possibly annihilation.
> >
> >
>
> ***A.A.  I definitely agree.  In the meantime, I'm still wondering why you
> think I condone suicide bombings.  The idea is so ludicrous it makes me
> want to get my chain saw and kill somebody.
>
>
> Andy Amago
>
>
>
>
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[lit-ideas] Re: Oh, Take me to JesusLand!

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