Joerg "wanted to know whether you really backed the large-scale atrocities committed in your name." That's a fairly broad brush. Do you back all the statements made in the German language? Do you back all the major genocides perpetrated by Leftists? (Think Pol Pot.) I support all effective action against the enemies of my country. Key word here is "effective." (In the 1990s, I would have given you a different answer, one endorsing universal brotherhood, world government, pacifism, sole reliance on cooperation ... the usual package, right off the shelf, arranged in the usual order, without too much thought put into it.) Joerg: just allow me one remark ... while you mock those "moral naifs" of your own making, and pontificate on wisdoms like the "unchanging nature of statecraft", it may be you who's enlisted as an immoral naif, or useful goofed, in the "essentially amoral attempts" of those in real power. Why "pontificate" and "goof" Joerg? Can't we just have a discussion? Maybe the frayed seams of your "culture and humanity" are showing? As for your question, yes, we can all be patsies and chumps ... you, me, and your aunt Sally. That doesn't invalidate my point that statecraft is an amoral realm, whether we want it to be or not. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html