[lit-ideas] Re: English Pubic Schools
- From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:59:01 -0500
Marlena, what a shock, you support spanking. Who would have guessed that
someone who spells G-d would be against alternatives to hitting kids,
especially since the Bible says hitting is necessary. Bear with me a minute
while I compose myself. Okay I'm over my shock. Where were we? Not a
problem. You think hitting a kid is necessary. Kids are animals, it's all
they understand. We need to assert our power over them. Hitting works. End
of discussion. (A couple of loose ends to follow.)
As far as Parenting Universities, are these offered BEFORE the kid is born or
after? I'm saying parents need to know BEFORE the kid is born that they can
expect this, this, and that and how to deal with it. AVOID a problem, don't
wait until there's a problem and then scramble to solve it, for the few who
even do try to solve it by learning something. Some home ec classes might be
doing it to some extent. Most are not and nowhere near enough.
As far as a cop giving advice on child rearing, that says it all. Nothing more
to say about that.
Believe it or not, children are rational creatures. They will do things like
go to school without a cattle prod and without a smack, however "gentle" the
smack, if parents knew what they were doing. People are just too stupid to
imagine alternatives, coupled with the Bible endorsing hitting. Powerful
combination. When all else fails read the instructions, it tells you hitting
is good. BTW, Eric Berne actually uses how to deal with refusing to go to
school as an example of what to do without a parental tantrum and without
calling the cops. The fact is, spanking is a crossing of boundaries. Period.
When boundaries are crossed, the kid suffers. He learns that violating
boundaries is okay. He learns it by experiencing it. Your agreeing or not
doesn't change anything. Paul doesn't believe in the unconscious. Doesn't
mean there is no unconscious.
Marlena, if you didn't want to do something that your boss told you to do, and
your boss saw your reluctance, and walked up to you and hit you (gently mind
you) and said do it or you get more of the same, how would you feel? Would you
not prefer that your boss said, Marlena, I see you really don't want to do
this. Want to talk about it? How would you feel about your boss (and about
yourself) after scenario 1 and after scenario 2? Throw into the mix that you
really had to have that job, you couldn't go anywhere else.
Last point. As far as the difference between a gentle swat and an extensive
beating, I think I can figure out the difference. My point is that there needs
to be a blanket law of you keep your hands to yourself no matter what. Then
there will be no extensive beatings.
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 2/17/2006 2:11:33 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: English Pubic Schools
Hi,
Irene, there is a huge difference between someone swatting a kid gently to make
a point (like, remember -- that car coming by is why we learned the "Stop look
and listen" rhyme -- and the people who beat their kids.
I do not like/think people need to spank, either--there are lots of other
strategies to use (and there are numerous books on how to do that--as well as
numerous parenting classes all around the country--but I will state that you
are completely mistaking the incredible horrible child abuse that DOES go on
with the spanking which has been referred to here.
You are doing an incredible disservice to those children who need the help when
you lump into the same category what has happened/is happening to them to what
is being done by the majority of parents who still spank/swat.
In addition, I very much take issue with your continued harping on how there
are no parenting classes. Almost every single school district offers Parents
as Teachers which has a Parent Educator who goes into the homes of parents of
kids ages 1-3. This is, as well, an international movement which is extremely
successful. No, it is NOT a 'law' that you have a Parent Educator, but if you
are a (especially) first time parent and you hear about this program you will
almost always sign up for this incredibly helpful service. They also offer
parent support/play groups--which is great for first time (and second and
third) parents.
There are, as well, Parents Universities being offered all around the nation. I
do not know where you live, but if you will contact your school district, I
imagine that if they don't offer that, that they do offer something... Another
national movement/parent class is called Love and Logic -- and these are
especially useful for the parents who have kids who are older and who have not
responded well to other strategies (whether they be time-outs, removal of
objects dear to their hearts, grounding, etc.)
Many schools also are making it mandatory for kids to take at least a quarter
of what used to be "Home Ec" (often now called FACS--Family and Consumer
Science) and often they have the kids 'marry' and have a kid. When I worked at
a branch library--and this was 13 years ago--we used to have teens come in
carrying their doll--they had to treat it like it was a baby and take it
everywhere. And this was 13 (actually more, for that is when I took my current
position).
One set of my friends has recently taken in two foster kids--I think I
mentioned that. When you speak so cavalierly of how ruinous a life is because
of a swat or spank--you competely disrespect the incredible beatings that these
little ones have endured. The younger one, age 4 or 5, came to them with
multiple bruises/wounds all over his body. The physical shows that there were
broken bones. He came completely unglued at the thought of being
held/cuddled--and kept pleading to be hit. The older one is scared of his own
shadow. To look at and be around these little ones who have been through a
living hell--it makes me cross that you would equate the damage/repair that
they are going to have to go through with the sorts of swat that Paul stated
that he had or some of the others.
I agree with you only in that there ARE lots of strategies that ought to be
used and that there are parents who do not use them--including spanking. I
remember, not long ago, having dinner with some friends and we were discussing
the lack of discipline that is 'out there'. One of the people present was a
school nurse and another was a cop. (there were a couple of others of us and
our kids were all at a different table so we were speaking candidly about this
issue--) The cop was bemoaning how often they get called away from all sorts
of what he terms *real* emergencies because of these parents who have no idea
what to do with their kids when they are being rebellious -- and these parents
also refuse to spank. What would a parent do when his/her child refuses to go
to school--and they have done what they could in a non-violent way? How would
you get that child to go there? (and no--the child just does not want to do
the work--is NOT being bullied or anything like that--)
My friend, the cop, said he looked at the parents who were wringing their
hands and saying that the school was calling and wanting to know why she had
not been in school and they didn't know what else to do but call 9-1-1. He
said he just look at them and told them that they should just pick her up and
put her in the car. So, he did. Then the mom looked at him and said "But how
will we get her out of the car?" He said "Did you see how I put her in the
car?" They nodded. "Take her out the same way."
another time, he had a call and it was a teenager who had been smacked across
the face by her mother. He had been called away from some other major case
they were working on -- he's part of the bomb squad here. The girl had called
9-1-1. He asked the mom if she had done that--the mom said 'yes'--and he asked
'why'. The girl had been hitting the mom and calling her horrible names. What
would you have done had you been the mom? You cannot legally kick her out of
your home without going to jail, you know. SO, would you prefer to be
terrorized by your own kid? No, I don't know if the mom had spanked her in the
past--but if she had, it had not 'worked'--but forget what led to it for a
moment. What would you have done in that instance? If you were the cop?
If you have EVER seen a child really beaten--you would not be talking about the
spanking as you are. There is a huge difference between the beating and the
spanking and the neglect.
You do not have any kids-and, with all your knowledge, you are not out there
teaching classes, volunteering to teach classes at a Parents University,
working as a Parent Educator, taking in foster kids who HAVE been severely
beaten -- or even the kids who had great parents but whose parents have died.
(there is a whole group of them in the foster care network like that, too)
Yes, many of the kids in the foster care world are messed up--and have major
healing to do.
Start helping them and talk to their social workers about how they were raised.
Then compare them with the everyday kid who is being raised.
Tell me the general area in which you live and I will get for you the names of
the different parenting classes there. Yes, here in MO there are still pockets
of places that are being gradually educated. Yes, it is a process and it is not
done yet. Citizens for Missouri's Children in my state is a wonderful
policy-watching advocate--and they are connected to most of the rest of them
If you don't want to help with the parenting classes yourself--then get on the
phone, email, write a letter to your Senator and Congressman--our sweet dear
President has both HeadStart and EvenStart on the chopping blocks yet
again---he has every single year he has been president and it is rather
tiresome for those who are child advocates to have to constantly be dealing
with the fact that he simply won't 'get it'. The research IS extensive that
the cycle of bad parenting can be changed--and IS being changed. I love
EvenStart because of how it addresses the issues of parenting classes as well
as classes which are called 'parent-and-child-together PACT Time. EvenStart
differs from HeadStart in that those classes are required in order to get the
child care--and the childcare is high quality. (HeadStart's is, too, but they
don't have quite the same partnerships with community folk as the EvenStart
people do--which includes, Irene, organizations which deal with preventing child
abuse, PAT (Parents as Teachers), health departments, etc etc. You OUGHT to
adore this program, too, since it IS part of the 'law' that to get the
childcare, you have to attend parenting classes...
Call about this. The National PTAs and PTSAs are hugely involved in working on
keeping the funding for such programs.
Also on the block are the grants for assisting foster care parents. Most of
those kids are the very ones which you seem to think are everywhere--and the
needs are great in order to work with them. Call your representative and
senator--please, do this and then, at least, if you have to be throwing in
those babies with the ones who get swatted in the manner that has been spoken
of here by people--at least we'll all know that you have done your part to make
the world a better place...
I grant you--I would prefer that there be none of the "Dare to Discipline"
types out there (that's the name of a book) but all would be "How to Discipline
Without Shouting or Spanking" -- which is simply incredibly awesome (and
works). But, I also know/have seen the little ones who have been beaten and
to put them in the same category and state that the issues they are going to be
working through is the same as what someone whose parents spanked them because
they kept running into the street (like it was a game--and I have seen kids do
that--thinking that they just liked/wanted the attention and had no clue that
there was a very real danger--and these were NOT kids who lacked
attention--parents outside watching constantly) Sure, they may grow up not
knowing how to relate to the opposite sex/husband/wife/co-worker--but they are
not going through what these little ones who my friends have, with two of their
own kids already, taken in...
Please write your Senator--if you care about this issue, at all, Irene. The
budget cuts are real and would eliminate a lot of those parenting classes you
advocate...
Best,
Marlena in Missouri
Terrorize a kid and those little neurons imprint forever. The problem too
>is that people who will terrorize a child most likely aren't going out of
>their way to have a relationship either.
Other related posts:
