[lit-ideas] Re: English Pubic Schools
- From: "JUDITH EVANS" <judithevans1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 15:04:17 -0000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > I don't know about our private schools, > they're
> > probably still
> > > backward in terms of physical discipline, or more
> > > backward anyway than our
> > > public schools.
> >
> > (As of 2003?) "Every industrialized country in the
> > world now prohibits school corporal punishment, except
> > the U.S., Canada and one state in Australia."
> >
>
>
> I don't understand this statement.
It seems clear enough to me. (I have more than one source.)
> The South fought a Civil War for the rigiht to live
> in Hell. I'll accept it if that's what you're referring to.
I have a list of states -- as you've probably realised
>
>
>
> > 27 states had banned school corporal punishment.
> >
> >
> > 1999-2000 School Year: US Public Schools: data
> > released February, 2003
> >
> > "In the U.S. as a whole, 342,038 students were
> > subjected to corporal punishment. This is a drop of 7%
> > from the previous survey two years earlier [taking
> > enrollment increases into account], continuing a
> > steady trend. Total U.S. public school enrollment was
> > 46,306,355 students in '99-2000. Twenty-seven states
> > and the District of Columbia now have prohibited all
> > corporal punishment in public schools"
> >
>
>
> I can see it in the private schools, the religious schools.
but this is about *public* schools
I think half
> the time that's why parents send their kids to private school, so the
> teachers can "keep them in line". They think it's good parenting,
> seriously. But I suspect it doesn't happen much there either. Where are
> you getting these numbers?
By Googling. The sites appear reputable. I can't Google now to get the
urls but may try later, though if you Google "corporal punishment" +US (or
indeed, + a country of your choice) you'll get them.
And what does corporal punishment in an
> American school look like? Sorry, I simply can't imagine a teacher
hitting
> a student.
What you can or can't imagine may not be relevant
> > "Since 1995 when this website was founded, spanking
> > has become a high-profile controversy in North
> > America....
> >
> > ...The Department of Health and Human Services and the
> > New England Journal of Medicine estimate that 1,000 to
> > 2,000 children die every year in the U.S. from
> > corporal punishment that has escalated to a lethal
> > level. They estimate that 142,000 are seriously
> > injured annually."
> >
> >
>
> That sounds right. Spanking is barbaric; it's done by parents. I heard
> the U.N. was going to promote non-violence toward children. I don't know
> if they have or not. I imagine in the U.S. it'll be thought of as an
> infringement on parental rights.
Yes -- and anyway you haven't signed the Convention
> Is it against the law? Are people actually prosecuted? Or is it just
> considered violence?
this is all I can find right now, I thought there'd been some developments
since then.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Corporal punishment remains legal when used by parents. Since 1860, parents
have been permitted to use 'reasonable chastisement' on their children - and
this remains the case today, except in Scotland, which has legislated to ban
parental corporal punishment.
In 1995 the Committee on the Rights of the Child, after examining the UK's
first report under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, recommended
that corporal punishment in the family should be prohibited, and criticised
the existence of the defence of "reasonable chastisement".
Following the 1997 case of A v. UK in the European Court of Human Rights,
which found that the defence of 'reasonable chastisement' did not provide
sufficient protection for the rights of the child, the Government promised a
review.
<<<<<<<<<<<<
> I suppose anything is possible. I don't see the distinction either, but
> that's fine. It doesn't matter.
It's a bit worrying that you can't see the difference between a statement
(yours) being totally wrong, and it's being right (it's totally wrong). --
perhaps you could list all the English men's autobiographies you've read....
> We all like to think it's pure fiction and that people aren't really
> capable of something like that. But then we see a tape ...
Dennis Potter was once beaten at school, I believe; but _The Singing
Detective_ IS FICTION, the stories in it are HALLUCINATIONS.
> I don't know. It sounds like it's somewhere between Wales and England.
> "The Forest of Dean lies between the rivers Wye and Severn, in the western
> part of Gloucestershire, and on the borders of Wales and Herefordshire."
>
> http://www.visitforestofdean.co.uk/
But not actually "in Wales"
> > This *one* likes to think they do not.
> >
>
>
> I think they'd better stop broadcasting all these bio shows on American
> cable television. That's where I get my information about royals.
I see
> > He was bitterly unhappy at Gordonstoun
> >
>
>
> And nobody cared.
that isn't quite correct, but I haven't the time to look for articles from
that era.
> > and was essentially an abandoned
> > > kid,
> >
> > that is a different point; boarding schools vary
> > enormously.
> >
>
>
> Not so different. All children need two parents. He had no parents.
> Presumably he had the best boarding school.
He had what was then, anyway, a very tough macho school -- very far from
being "the best".
His father was also
> emotionally abusive from what I understand. That's why Charles was so
> crushed when Monte (Blanc?) was killed by the IRA. He had been his
mentor.
Mountbatten.
> The royals have a hellish life. That's my opinion. If you disagree,
> that's fine.
Interesting, Irene.
>
>
>
> >
> > along with all the
> > > other royals.
> >
> >
> > Andrew really liked Gordonstoun. I believe Anne liked
> > Benenden.
>
> I don't know.
Yes well, you don't know people who knew Andrew at Gordonstoun and Anne at
Benenden. And you haven't seen Andrew interviewed about his time there are
Charles' time there. So, right, you don't know.
By definition to be sent to boarding school is, from the
> child's point of view, to be rejected by the family. The parents don't
> care enough about the kid to keep him around. You know more about their
> education than I do.
Yes I do.
>
>
> > >That doesn't make for happy people.
> >
> > Many things make for unhappy people.
> >
> >
>
> Not true. People who are grounded in feelings of safety and acceptance
can
> weather just about anything throughout their lives. If you don't agree,
> that's fine.
I'm glad to hear it.
>
> Change comes slowly.
Yes -- but you're fighting an interesting rearguard action here.
> > **I am aware of the former brutalities of certain of
> > our public schools -- to which I am anyway opposed --
> > and of the unhappiness caused to some children sent
> > away from home so young. My objection is to your
> >
> > " British. That
> > makes
> > sense. They used to do something short of that in
> > their public schools
> > (seriously). Hopefully things have civilized up a
> > bit."
> >
> > so ill-informed, so crass.**
> >
> >
>
>
> I can see that it would make an English person bristle to be reminded, but
> it is not ill-informed.
It is coming from someone who thinks it's impossible to read an
autobiography of an Englishman without encountering tales of dreadful
beatings at public school
Crass, mmm, maybe.
Yes
But so is the fact that the
> tape happened,
I saw the video on the BBC News (unlike you, I did not turn it off)
and that English public schools were in fact veritable
> torture chambers for a lot of kids. That's history in any case. What
> matters is what's happening now.
then why did you go on about English public schools causing the Basra
incident?
> And/or you read it as though it were.
No -- but I had to try to give you some facts about the UK. But I think
I'll give up now.
Judy Evans, Cardiff
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