Robert S I truly despair when I read <From sungenis@xxxxxxx Wed Dec 19 14:05:43 2007> this thread, and similar. (See below). Firstly, the paranoia. It seems to be the first shot fired by those who can't get their views accepted by honest workers in the fields in question. RS: Sure, Paul. Everyone in the world is just waiting with open arms to consider the evidence for geocentrism because they are so "honest." If you believe that, then you don't live in reality either. But worse, there is the flood of words which seem designed to attempt to smother the discoveries of the past 500(?) years. These discoveries are open to disproof by any who can demonstrate falsity. No one does, which leads to the possibility that no one can -- not because of ineptitude but because the disproof does not exist. RS: They have been demonstrated, Paul, but no one wants to listen, because they know what's at stake. If you think otherwise, then show us one proof of heliocentrism that has been demonstrated in the last "500 years." If, instead of the flood of words, we were to be treated to a series of simple, testable geocentric hypotheses equivalent to F = ma and those which flow from it, which lead to the inescapable conclusion that the Sun with all its mass circles the tiny Earth then you'd have a prayer. It would also help your case if you could explain how the enormous body of interlocking and mutually supporting knowledge of the physical functioning of the Solar System can be repeatedly demonstrated and yet be false. RS: I can tell you haven't studied the issue, Paul, otherwise you wouldnt' make such inept comments. F = ma supports geocentrism just as much as heliocentrism. However, I think the thing which bothers me most is resorting to Maxwell and quasars and alleged false proofs of relativity. This is taking a steam hammer to crack an egg. If the Sun circles the Earth you should be able to show it within the sphere encompassing the Solar System. My guess is that if the universe ended at the Oort Cloud, eff would still equal em-ae and the Earth would still circle the Sun. RS: The "quasars" are what led people like Hawking to notice that the earth was in the center of the universe, so I'm not "resorting" to any hammar cracking of eggs. Maxwell said there was absolute space, the basis of geocentrism, and his equations prove it. Einstein said no. You argue with them. As for Einstein, if you want to believe that lengths shrink when an object moves, time changes in the process, and its mass increases, just so you can explain the anomalies of Michelson's experiment, that's your privilege, but I'd just assume answer it by saying that mass, time and length stay the same and the earth isn't moving, and I'm just as "scientific" as you for saying so. I have two beautiful examples of how science triumphs. The first concerns Gregor J Mendel who first worked out the principles of inheritance (not money but genes). He was an Augustinian priest (a cloistered order I think - in any event he worked in isolation) who when he died, had his papers burned by his abbot because the abbot feared that this "knowledge", if widely available, would be a threat to the church. Today his work is recognised and respected because it has utility, ie -- it works. RS: If you're so high on science, then I suggest you read GWW and discover all the well known scientists (even those who believe in heliocentrism) have said that they can neither prove heliocentrism nor deny geocentrism. If you like science, Paul, we're way ahead of you. I wouldn't have even entered this arena unless I knew science was on my side. The other is the disastrous effect of doctrinal domination of science, in this case the Soviet Union and its "Soviet theory of Genetics" (as though ideology could influence truth, ie -- what is). The man the Soviets chose to back was named Lysenko. After 50 years(?) of failure to demonstrate the truth of his claims, with the Soviet Union falling further and further behind in this matter and the matters upon which this false view of genetics bore, they had to reverse their position. His theory did not have utility, it didn't work. The point I'm making is that science is about discovery -- it is not about invention. If you seek to disseminate the theory that in a gravity field the pan with 900g in it will sink and the pan with 1000 g in it will rise, you will forever be shown to be wrong. Paul D RS: Granted, but we aren't talking about that, are we? We're talking about whether you can prove heliocentrism and negate geocentrism. If you think you can, I'm listening PS Almost missed this one. From your post below - '...then the science establishment has no right to teach that heliocentrism is correct, much less been scientifically proven. Hence we should have a voice in academia today.' Would you also give an equal voice to a flat Earth on four elephant's backs on a turtle's back in a really big puddle? The concave Earth? A flat circular Earth in the middle of a Tychonian system with the South Pole a really high wall of ice at the edge? And all the other alternatives? I'm sure the proponents of these alternative systems have explanations which they regard as at least as valid as geocentrism and that if you get representation then so should they. RS: Sticks and stones, Paul. If you have proof for heliocentrism, show it, otherwise, I'm not interested in how much demagoguery you can sling out of the Flat Earth society or elephants backs. It's interesting how the proponents of all the odd ball theories seem to think it is just them against orthodoxy. RS: Yes, and I always find it interesting whenever debates about geocentrism come to the fore they are always answered by Flat Earth's and elephants instead of showing the proofs of heliocentrism and the disproofs of geocentrism. I've been through it many times, Paul. Don't waste my time with stone throwing. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Deema <paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: Geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 1:13 pm Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Integrity in science Robert S I truly despair when I read <From sungenis@xxxxxxx Wed Dec 19 14:05:43 2007> this thread, and similar. (See below). Firstly, the paranoia. It seems to be the first shot fired by those who can't get their views accepted by honest workers in the fields in question. But worse, there is the flood of words which seem designed to attempt to smother the discoveries of the past 500(?) years. These discoveries are open to disproof by any who can demonstrate falsity. No one does, which leads to the possibility that no one can -- not because of ineptitude but because the disproof does not exist. If, instead of the flood of words, we were to be treated to a series of simple, testable geocentric hypotheses equivalent to F = ma and those which flow from it, which lead to the inescapable conclusion that the Sun with all its mass circles the tiny Earth then you'd have a prayer. It would also help your case if you could explain how the enormous body of interlocking and mutually supporting knowledge of the physical functioning of the Solar System can be repeatedly demonstrated and yet be false. However, I think the thing which bothers me most is resorting to Maxwell and quasars and alleged false proofs of relativity. This is taking a steam hammer to crack an egg. If the Sun circles the Earth you should be able to show it within the sphere encompassing the Solar System. My guess is that if the universe ended at the Oort Cloud, eff would still equal em-ae and the Earth would still circle the Sun. I have two beautiful examples of how science triumphs. The first concerns Gregor J Mendel who first worked out the principles of inheritance (not money but genes). He was an Augustinian priest (a cloistered order I think - in any event he worked in isolation) who when he died, had his papers burned by his abbot because the abbot feared that this "knowledge", if widely available, would be a threat to the church. Today his work is recognised and respected because it has utility, ie -- it works. The other is the disastrous effect of doctrinal domination of science, in this case the Soviet Union and its "Soviet theory of Genetics" (as though ideology could influence truth, ie -- what is). The man the Soviets chose to back was named Lysenko. After 50 years(?) of failure to demonstrate the truth of his claims, with the Soviet Union falling further and further behind in this matter and the matters upon which this false view of genetics bore, they had to reverse their position. His theory did not have utility, it didn't work. The point I'm making is that science is about discovery -- it is not about invention. If you seek to disseminate the theory that in a gravity field the pan with 900g in it will sink and the pan with 1000 g in it will rise, you will forever be shown to be wrong. Paul D PS Almost missed this one. From your post below - '...then the science establishment has no right to teach that heliocentrism is correct, much less been scientifically proven. Hence we should have a voice in academia today.' Would you also give an equal voice to a flat Earth on four elephant's backs on a turtle's back in a really big puddle? The concave Earth? A flat circular Earth in the middle of a Tychonian system with the South Pole a really high wall of ice at the edge? And all the other alternatives? I'm sure the proponents of these alternative systems have explanations which they regard as at least as valid as geocentrism and that if you get representation then so should they. It's interesting how the proponents of all the odd ball theories seem to think it is just them against orthodoxy. ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo