[access-uk] Re: Moderators request once more: Subject naming

hi andrew, a very good description! 
Kevin - co-owner/moderator of the blind gamers discussion list 
contact me via email/msn: 
kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:44 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Moderators request once more: Subject naming


Hi,

To add a bit to what George was saying - yes, the thread-topic header is
the one that is used especially by newer Outlook versions, but also the
References headers and In-Reply-To headers.  These last two are somewhat
dated now and are concerned with mailing lists where lots of people are
using Unix mail clients or newsgroups.  When I started back on the
Internet around 8-9 years ago, I used a program for OS/2 called Yarn
(which I used until 2000 on this list - remember those Newsgroup:
headers)?  Anyway, to illustrate why there are two options - sort by
thread and sort by subject, in a newsgroup where you have several
hundred topics drifting here and there, people did what the moderators
are telling you not to do - that is change the subject heading without
breaking the thread, because in most clients this was shown very well -
excuse the sighted bit here, but for those who can see, this is how Yarn
did it:

Subject Author
| Tescos Access Site Andrew Hodgson
| DJ Paddy
| Other grocery online shops Andrew Hodgson
| DJ Paddy
| Andrew
Hodgson
| George
Bell
| Andrew
Hodgson

In my example, I started a thread about Tescos shopping.  Both DJ Paddy
and George replied to this, I replied to George on the same topic
subject, but in Barry's reply I changed the subject as he talked a bit
more about other different shopping sites.  DJ Paddy then replied to the
same topic, and I then replied back.  In Yarn you could also
expand/collapse the different branches of the thread at will to make it
easier to read.

Sorry for the crude diagram, but this is how it was done, and I am sure
that those people who can see can see why it was done like this -
especially where you had whole streams of messages like this.  For those
of you who can't see the diagram, or who can't understand it, this is
why on a VI list such as this we need to really change the subject line
if at all possible.

Hope this helped,
Andrew.

P.S.  If you want to thank me, please send me the cost of a Wye Valley -
I will be more than happy to remember your thanks at the local pub!


-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of George Bell
Sent: 05 September 2005 20:50
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Moderators request once more: Subject naming

For the benefit of those who are wondering what this thread
is all about, (and some of those who do) let my try to
explain.  Andrew has mentioned some of what follows, but I
feel that perhaps a simpler explanation might help.

(And sorry if this is a long message, but I too have learned
a few new things today about how to manage mail from e-mail
lists.)

Most e-mail software packages these days allow you to sort
messages in one way or another.  This might, for example, be
by date received or by sender.

However, there are two specific sorting methods which are of
concern here, Subject and what is called either, "Thread"
or, "Conversation".

So how do these two work?

When you send a completely new message to the list, you
(hopefully) include a meaningful Subject.

If someone replies to your message, many (but not all)
e-mail systems will add additional information to the reply
called a, "Thread-Topic" to the bit of the message you do
not usually see, called the "Header".  This is normally
whatever was in the Subject line of the new message you
sent.

Once this, "Thread-Topic" Header has been added to a
message, it essentially CANNOT be changed when you reply to
that message - at least not easily.

Someone may change the SUBJECT in a reply to a message, but
that "Thread-Topic" will stay the same.

Now in Outlook for example, one of the sorting options is
"Conversation", and it is actually the, "Thread-Topic" which
is used to sort messages.

But Outlook also includes a sort by, "Subject".

So why have these two sorts, "Subject" and "Conversation" or
"Thread"?

I'm afraid it's one of these things that was probably
decided by Internet boffins way back.

Let's say you start a new conversation or thread,
"Supermarket Web Pages", asking if anyone has any views on
them.

One person might reply, and leave the Subject as is.

Someone else might reply, and change the subject to,
"Tesco's Web Site".

Another may reply, and change the subject to, "Morrison's
Web Site".

If you have your mail sorted by Conversation or Thread, all
four messages above will be grouped together.

If you have your messages sorted by Subject, you will get
THREE groups of messages.

Are you following me so far?

So then I jump in, and reply to ANY of the above messages,
and change the subject to, shall we say, "Internet Banking".

That's fine for those who have sorted by Subject, but for
those who have sorted by Conversation, or Thread, they now
find a message about "Internet Banking" in amongst the
"Supermarket Web Pages" messages.

So the bottom line is that we are asking, as nicely as
possible, if you would spare a minute to think about this
when you are posting to the list.

Are you really replying to the Subject, or are you starting
a new conversation or thread?  If it's NEW, please hit the
NEW button instead of REPLY.

If you have got this far - thank you.

If you have any specific questions, I'll try to answer them
as best I can.

George bell.
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