[project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
- From: eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:26:13 -0400
yep, i really like heavy armor for some situations - wars, big battles,
dispatching of villagers :P etc. etc. etc. and have some awesome plans for
it... i just can't stand how in FF (even ff6/3) everyone (even locke...)
wore full plate armor even though it made no sense for their character at
all :P
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Matthew Morgan <MMorgan@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> For sure, I mean a full plate knight could’ve walked into any village and
> wreaked havoc, because pitchforks and shovels vs full plate = sad day for
> villagers.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
> project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *eric drewes
> *Sent:* Friday, June 26, 2009 6:12 AM
> *To:* project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
>
>
>
> yep... its not the best movie (but i liked it) but i think the biggest
> thing it demonstrated was how knights in heavy armor worked in a real
> battlefield. basically turns a competent warrior into a juggernaut! :)
>
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Matthew Morgan <MMorgan@xxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> Is that about Joan of Arc?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
> project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *eric drewes
> *Sent:* Friday, June 26, 2009 6:03 AM
> *To:* project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
> *Subject:* [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
>
>
>
> neat idea re: having the weight of the armor be needed to activate certain
> switches, we could also have balance puzzles maybe that work like that. For
> traps, armor will absorb damage so heavy armor will deflect a lot of
> damage. The main benefit for heavy armor will be combat though, but it will
> be VERY good.
>
> Have you seen "the messenger" by luc besson, milla jovovich is in it.
>
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> Yeah, we will see, for sure. In fact, the heavy armor could possibly
> do something like activate switches and pressure plates that you can't
> use normally. It all depends on how we implement it and create the
> fun in it. That's why people give input (not just me, everyone on the
> team)
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:47 AM, eric drewes<figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > i agree, debate can refine and polish and inspire - i am all for debate.
> I
> > just feel like i am defending a system ad nauseum because the whole
> picture
> > isn't being looked at. basically, heavy armor is going to be totally bad
> > ass and it NEEDS this as something to balance it out.
> >
> > my game design philosophy is to make a ton of super awesome mutually
> > exclusive things so a player can build their ideal character based on
> their
> > style of gameplay but throughout they will have to make tough decisions
> > about which they value more. this is part of that philosophy!
> >
> > like, right now you THINK that no one will use heavy armor and it won't
> be
> > fun, but when you see the whole thing in action maybe you yourself will
> > decide that the heavy armor benefits are well worth not being able to
> jump
> > as far :)
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 8:17 AM, Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I just want to see everything done the best! Sometimes suggestions
> >> will spark a debate, and that's not always a bad thing.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:07 AM, eric drewes<figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> > basically i view this entire argument as such:
> >> > i show you a puzzle piece for a massive puzzle i am working on and you
> >> > tell
> >> > me that the shape of the edges aren't aethestically pleasing to you
> and
> >> > they
> >> > need to be changed. :P
> >> > On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:49 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I understand your point - i just disagree with it :P It will be used,
> >> >> it
> >> >> will be fun, nothing will be half done or incomplete.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx
> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> You really seem to be missing my point though Eric. If we focus
> more
> >> >>> on things that will get used, we can make those more fun, instead of
> >> >>> adding things that either are half done or incomplete.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Basically, the way you think that it should be in just in case 1
> >> >>> person uses it, I think it shouldn't be because only one person will
> >> >>> use it.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> But lets just put it aside for now, I don't want to ruffle any more
> >> >>> feathers here :P
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 6:46 AM, eric drewes<figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >> >>> > basically it seems to me that everyone's argument is "but I want
> to
> >> >>> > be
> >> >>> > able
> >> >>> > to jump far!" because we're just looking only at the jumping
> issue.
> >> >>> > Overall, the game will be balanced to make heavy armor desirable
> for
> >> >>> > some
> >> >>> > circumstances, and some people may be willing to sacrifice being
> >> >>> > able
> >> >>> > to
> >> >>> > jump stuff to get that extra protection.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > I really think you guys aren't looking at the overall picture.
> this
> >> >>> > isn't a
> >> >>> > jumping game. being able to jump far is not a requirement for
> >> >>> > beating
> >> >>> > the
> >> >>> > game. heavy armor will have advantages in other systems to offset
> >> >>> > not
> >> >>> > being
> >> >>> > able to jump as far. just because YOU currently do not think you
> >> >>> > would
> >> >>> > use
> >> >>> > heavy armor doesn't mean we should eliminate it for the people who
> >> >>> > may
> >> >>> > be
> >> >>> > interested in using it all the time or in certain circumstances.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 9:42 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> > wrote:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> well heavy armor isn't just for the hero and no one is forced to
> >> >>> >> use
> >> >>> >> it
> >> >>> >> for the main character, i don't want to just eliminate it because
> >> >>> >> we
> >> >>> >> wouldnt
> >> >>> >> want to use it. I think its best to give the players the option
> to
> >> >>> >> decide
> >> >>> >> how they want to play without us dictating how we think their
> >> >>> >> character
> >> >>> >> should be - the design is meant to lead people into making their
> >> >>> >> own
> >> >>> >> decisions about what they want to do.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 2:40 AM, Chris Riccobono
> >> >>> >> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >> wrote:
> >> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> After reading the rest of the thread:
> >> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> Nick's point about taking off heavy armor is a very good one.
> >> >>> >>> Sure,
> >> >>> >>> we can leave that in and let people do that, but we could also
> >> >>> >>> leave
> >> >>> >>> that out and dedicate more time to other stuff that players will
> >> >>> >>> end
> >> >>> >>> up using.
> >> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> If we can figure out what players will like to use and what they
> >> >>> >>> won't, we're going to have that much better of a game!
> >> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:13 AM, eric drewes<figarus@xxxxxxxxx
> >
> >> >>> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> > cool, i think it is a good compromise :) also, i understand
> your
> >> >>> >>> > concern w/
> >> >>> >>> > wanting an additional tier but maybe we can play with the jump
> >> >>> >>> > distances for
> >> >>> >>> > traps and solve it that way.
> >> >>> >>> >
> >> >>> >>> > in retrospect and upon further review i think that the super
> >> >>> >>> > jump
> >> >>> >>> > would
> >> >>> >>> > be
> >> >>> >>> > better at least 2x to create a distinct separation from normal
> >> >>> >>> > jumping.
> >> >>> >>> >
> >> >>> >>> > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Kent Petersen
> >> >>> >>> > <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> > wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>> >> I like Eric's system. it is a hybrid of what everyone wants.
> >> >>> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:37 AM, eric drewes
> >> >>> >>> >> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>> as do all men (and some women)
> >> >>> >>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Nick Klotz
> >> >>> >>> >>> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>> I wish women felt the same about relationships.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:30 PM, eric drewes
> >> >>> >>> >>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> i guess a better way to say it is, i am all about value
> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> bang
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> the buck. i am for making things complex and intricate -
> as
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> long
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> as adding
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> that complexity provides more depth and fun. if its just
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> complex
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> for the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> sake of making things more complex, i just dont see the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> point...
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Nick Klotz
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> "we should make it as simple as possible and i am for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> simplicity
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> the record"
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> You guys have no idea how true this is. You wouldn't
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> believe
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> ideas and systems I had to rethink when coming up with a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> basic
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> combat
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> design.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:21 PM, eric drewes
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> no problem :P hehe... yeah if it was an arcade game i
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> would
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> be in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> total agreement that we should make it as simple as
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> possible
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> i am for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> simplicity for the record - as long as its not at the
> cost
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> versatility
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:15 PM, katie cook
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> <ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> My bad E =P I have had no idea really how far/deep you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> guys
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> were
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> wanting to go (hence me saying I wasn't for sure. I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> though I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> caught a while
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> back you guys mentioning launch on XBLA and I just got
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> arcade in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> my head.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for the clarification E.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> With my new understanding of the game =), I am on board
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> with
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> all
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> previously mentioned scenarious on abilities for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> jumping/armor,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> etc. Not
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> that I wasn't before, I was just slightly concerned
> about
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> overthinking
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> simplistics.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> --- On Wed, 6/24/09, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> From: eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> Subject: [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 6:27 AM
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> i want to explicitely thank chris, alan and katie for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> offering
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> counter points to my original thought, i really think
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> having
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> alternate
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> perspectives of things will allow us to fully explore
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> elements
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> of game
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> design like this and that it will ultimately deliver a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> better,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> more
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> intuitive and most importantly more FUN gaming
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> experience.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> I do
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> not mind
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> debating the points as I have done below because
> frankly,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> if
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> cannot defend
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the game design philosophy then the system we're
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> discussing
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> probably
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> broken and i need to work on it some more. besides
> that,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> it
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> has
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> been
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> my experience in designing the combat with nick that
> when
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> debating ideas
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> like this it occasionally inspires great new ideas. I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> actually
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> consider
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> this to be a vital part of "pre-testing" so please, I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> encourage
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> you to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> continue offering your insights and perspectives!
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> To give you a specific example, your idea about armor
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> making
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players
> avoid
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> doing
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> that
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> in any instance they can. In action based games,
> skilled
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> players
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> will
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible,
> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> will
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> avoid
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> things like that on purpose.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> - this is by design, we want to encourage people who
> are
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> exploring
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> to use lighter armor, it makes no sense to go on a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> journey
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> into
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> a mysterious
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> temple that is bound to have traps, puzzles, etc. in
> full
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> plate
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> armor. We
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> want that style of armor to be reserved for people who
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> accept
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the penalty of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> speed/jumping for the enhanced ability to take hits
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> without
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> getting damage.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> this is a player choice.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make players
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> feel
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> like
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> they
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> can't be damaged. For things like this you want to
> flip
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> tables,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> and instead create armor that gives players more speed,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> but
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> they
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> take
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> eyes
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> of a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> - also by design. We want players to feel like there
> are
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> concequences to being injured and it should be avoided
> as
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> much
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> as possible.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> There are penalties for being injured or dying - that
> is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> major
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> part of the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> combat design here. We are trying to break away from
> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> constant
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> healing/ressurection that has been the common thread in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> most
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> rpgs. we're
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> trying to get away from the attrition system. more info
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> on
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> this
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> below
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> have
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> fun
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> doing
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the things you imagine.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> - one of my favorite gaming experiences is america's
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> army,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> what
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> makes it so great and so immersive is that you are
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> constantly in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> fear of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> your life so there is actual tension on the battle
> field,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> its
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> not like tf2
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> where you run out, spam attacks and if you get killed,
> oh
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> well,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> respawn. I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> love the idea of players figuring out the best
> strategies
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> stay alive and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> learning tactics and skills to do it. yes, it is a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> challenge
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> -
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> but that is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> what makes it so great! Another game I love, as alan
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> pointed
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> out, is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> gemstone. Gemstone was ruthless with one shot kills,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> getting
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> your leg
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> chopped off and not being able to climb stuff, etc.
> like
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> there's areas in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the game you have to take your armor off and be
> athletic
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> enough
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> to jump in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> order to make it over there. staying alive is a major
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> part
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> that game and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> everytime you got hit, you would bleed and feel the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> effects
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> it. as a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> player you had to learn to adapt your skills and player
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> style to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> prevent
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> yourself from getting damaged as much as possible.
> this
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> key element to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the game design we are trying to go with. so to answer
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> your
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> question - yes,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> i think it'd be fun :P
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I
> play
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> arcade-ish
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> style games like I the ones I think (if I understand
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> correctly)
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> that we are
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> trying to make, I think Chris has got a really good
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> point. I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> like to take
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> that
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> we
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> should flake
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> on stuff. But we should make sure to not
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> scrutinize/overthink
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> things too
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> much if that makes sense.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> - this is an rpg, not an arcade game! :P the emphasis
> is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> on
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> exploration, not just going as quickly as you can to
> get
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> next level
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> (although you can if you so choose). what makes rpg's
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> (and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> adventure games)
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> fun for me is finding all the little secrets that are
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> hidden
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> all
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> over the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> world. also, everyone is acting like 5 settings is so
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> complex,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> really the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> first one is only for special case scenarios and isn't
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> meant
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> be used
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> during actual gameplay, and the 5th one is really only
> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> serve
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> as a special
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> thing for use like spells, flying, etc. there are only
> 3
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> main
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> ones, a weak
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> jump for heavily armored players, a normal one for most
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> people,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> and a long
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> jump for people who choose to sacrifice armor for speed
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> manueverability
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> invisible /
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> automatic to the player. Like when you were heavier
> you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> just
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> dont jump as
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> high or as far. The player might not know there are 5
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> levels of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> jumping
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> ability, they might just realize "hey when i take off
> my
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> armor i
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> can make
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> that jump to that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> course
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> maybe an NPC
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> tips you off to that fact). Or there are boots that
> have
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> description of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> "wear to be able to jump higher"
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> -right, this is all an under the hood system. its
> funny
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> because
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> when i write stories, etc. i try to keep things as
> close
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> vest because
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> i like the reader to be surprised, i like keeping a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> mystery
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> something
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> for them to discover for themselves. this is also true
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> my
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> game design
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> philosophy, give players a ton of neat stuff they can
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> find
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> out
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> themselves if they want to... the irony is, as a team
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> we're
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> ALL
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> under the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> hood so i have to express all the hidden things to you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> guys
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> so
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> it can get
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> made/discussed, but then everyone is like "oh that is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> overly
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> complicated
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> there's no reason for that!" without putting themselves
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> shoes of the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> player who doesn't even know the system exists and that
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> its
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> just
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> there for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> them to discover if they are curious and interested.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> 5 different jumps will matter only as much as we design
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> game
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> them to matter. In Diablo 2, the barb jump skill only
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> let
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> cross
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> certain terrain that wasn't walkable, so having so many
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> different
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> jump
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> lengths was easily solved - just make the pits larger.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> If
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> we
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> can
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> find
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> an easy solution in our game - an equivalent to "just
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> making
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> pits
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> larger" - then we can add as many jumps as we want, and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> even
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> make
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> them
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> scale into flying!
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> I recently learned how to do the shinespark tricks in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> Metroid
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> Redesign, and if we could make our jumps in the game
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> require
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> skill
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> curve somehow, that would reward the player for the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> ability
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> jump
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> higher... almost like how in 3d Mario games, you have
> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> jump
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> right
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> as
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> you hit the ground again, within a certain amount of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> time,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> so
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> can
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> do the triple jump.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> -i actually view it as a really simple system that
> allows
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> for a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> lot
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> of neat versatility in game design and player
> strategy...
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> something that
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> allows for more skill based movement if people are
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> interested
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> because i know
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> some crazy people (like nick) enjoy finding crazy
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> challenges
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> trying to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> exploit gameplay tools to get into areas, etc. i think
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> that
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> fun and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> great and should be part of our design. i picked 5 as
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> number so there
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> would be differences between teh playing styles while
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> keeping
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> things we
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> needed to design/test for to the minimum.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> okay so lets get down to brass tacks here (how much for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> monkey?)
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> (3 adunai points to whoever gets the reference)
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> IMO we have 2 options:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> a) 2 jump system - 1 for armor too heavy for you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> (basically,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> non-jumping) and 1 for normal.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> pros: easier to design for, easier to test for, no need
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> think
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> about armor choices for the player beyond "is it too
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> heavy?"
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> cons: less versatile, no differences between wearing
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> light/heavy/medium armor for adventurers, no hidden
> areas
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> only
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> accessible by
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> people who invest and discover ways to jump farther.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> b) 5 jump system - as illustrated above
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> pros: more for the player to discover, another "tool"
> in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> our
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> tool
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> box, gives extra strengths/weaknesses when picking
> armor
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> character style
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> cons: harder to design/test, may baffle some
> characters.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> now obviously i am biased towards B (the 5 jump system)
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> so
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> my
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> pitch
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> for it is, it'll be simpler in practice for the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> player/designer
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> than it may
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> seem to you right now, it's important for game balance
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> between
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> heavy/light
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> armor, players can really just make sure they are at
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> level 3
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> (normal) and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> they will be able to get through the entire game
> without
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> worrying about the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> difference in jump so i think there is zero bafflement
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> chance,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> and it gives
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> us another neat tool for desiging exploration and
> hidden
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> stuff
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> in the game.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> I am definitely open-minded and can be convinced to go
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> with
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> A) -
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> so
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> lets open it up to the forum and take a little poll and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> if
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> want to post
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> comments/thoughts/ideas - then it'll give us more
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> information to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> make a good
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> and intelligent decision.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> :)
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:55 AM, eric drewes
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> i didnt have time to read everythign yet but basically
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> here
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> my
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> take...
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 1 is basically a "your character is broken
> level"
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> doesnt
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> need to be designed for, its basically a penalty thing
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> we
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> can
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> use. it is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> the extreme
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 2 is needed to differentiate heavy armor from
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> light
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> armor
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 3 is what we will design for, it is "normal"
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 4 is to sepparate quick characters with ultra
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> light
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> armor
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> from people wearing normal armor
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 5 is a special case scenario type of thing
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> we're basically just designing the game for level 3,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> maybe
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> small amount of special case scenario areas for level
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> 4/5
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> (like
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> under 2-3
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> per chapter)
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> i really don't think that it is overly complicated at
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> all
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> this
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> will be a SUBTLE thing, i.e. again, most of the things
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> like
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> this are only
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> designed for people who want the bonus, but dont have
> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> have
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> it
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Alan Wolfe
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> yeah actually thats a good point, i remember playin
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> zelda
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> see objects which are obviously repeated (ie black
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> rocks
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> link to the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> past, or the docks in zelda 1 etc) and knowing "there
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> something up with
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> those" but you dont know til you have the item. I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> forgot
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> about that, that
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> was kinda fun gameplay :P
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Chris Riccobono
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, that's part of the fun of Zelda and Metroid
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> style
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> games...
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> getting those items that make you able to do things
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> didn't predict were
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> possible, so then the player wonders what cool thing
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> gonna
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> come out next
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> :)
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> That's a pretty cool idea for introducing game
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> mechanics..
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> player doesn't know about them at all in the game
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> until
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> they
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> actually get
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> the item for it.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Alan Wolfe
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> yeah totally i agree with you.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> we were talkin about this before, we were saying
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> having
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> lots
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> optional things to discover in a game makes it seem
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> bigger
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> because we don't
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> advertise what the "edges" are.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> so yeah totally, if we advertise there are 5 jump
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> levels
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> it
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ruins the magic, but if the player discovers "wtf i
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> jump
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> higher now?" they
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> might try to see just how high they can jump.
> Maybe
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> they
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> get to level 4 and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> never cap out at level 5, as far as they know the
> sky
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> limit even
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> though they are almost at the cieling hehe.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Chris Riccobono
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, about the player not knowing there will be 5
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> jump
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> levels,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> would trigger the "yay I discovered something"
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> emotion.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It's
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> really
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> fun to learn how to do something to reach new
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> places,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> know?
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Chris
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Riccobono<crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > I do believe simplicity brings about the most
> fun
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > when
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > done
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > correctly!
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > I think part of the fun of a game is learning
> how
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > use
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > system,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > too, so when you can learn it very easy at
> first,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > are
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > open to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > learning new mechanics as things go on.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Alan
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> You deffinately have a good point. Our game
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> isn't
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> arcadey
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> per se but it is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> a game where you can go deeper if you want but
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> don't
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> have
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> to.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Like there will be lots to explore but it's all
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> optional
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> (Eric correct me if
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> im wrong lol).
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or
> less
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> be
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> invisible / automatic to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the player. Like when you were heavier you
> just
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> dont
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> jump
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> as high or as
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> far. The player might not know there are 5
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> levels
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> of
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> jumping ability, they
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> might just realize "hey when i take off my
> armor
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> i
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> can
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> make
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> that jump to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of
> course
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> maybe
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> an
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> NPC tips you off
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> to that fact). Or there are boots that have
> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> description
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> of "wear to be
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> able to jump higher"
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> But yeah there is deffinate wisdom to keeping
> it
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> simple,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> especially keeping
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the end result the player sees simple.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Someone should be able to pick up the game and
> be
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> able
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> play without
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> having to read some huge manual :P
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the old saying "easy to learn difficult to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> master"
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> yadda
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> yadda
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:13 PM, katie cook
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> <ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> when
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> play
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> arcade-ish style
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> games like I the ones I think (if I understand
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> correctly)
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> that we are trying
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to make, I think Chris has got a really good
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> point.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> like
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to take the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> easiest route possible to get to the next
> step.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Not
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> that we
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> should flake on
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> stuff. But we should make sure to not
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> scrutinize/overthink
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> things too much
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> if that makes sense.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I like the opportunity to get a little bit
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> deeper
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> with
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> game if I choose
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to at the time, but appreciate when I don't
> have
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Usually arcades games
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> tend to be shorter in hours played. When I
> play
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> short
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> game, I don't wanna
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> have to invest a lot of time and deal with
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> frivilous
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> features. The easier
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the game the funner it is for me (for
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> arcade/short
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> games. I
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> hope this makes
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> sense.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Chris Riccobono
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> From: Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Subject: [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN
> Update
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> 270
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:46 PM
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> 5 different jump levels is going to complicate
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> things a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> bit
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> more than
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> we want. Try to keep in mind that the ideal
> is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> make
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> game more
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> fun. Ask yourself, will 5 different jumps
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> enhance
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> game
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> enough to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> warrant the amount of coding, designing, and
> bug
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> testing
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> they will
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> require?
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To reiterate what I tried to stress early on,
> we
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> want
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> game to be
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> as fun as possible, as simply as possible.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Having
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> complex game is
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> great if it enhances the experience, but if it
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> doesn't,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> it
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> becomes a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> hinderance - just another game, in other
> words.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To give you a specific example, your idea
> about
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> armor
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> making you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> slower and jump shorter will generally make
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> players
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> avoid
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> doing that
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> in any instance they can. In action based
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> games,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> skilled
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> players will
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> possible,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> will avoid
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> things like that on purpose.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> players
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> feel
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> like they
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> can't be damaged. For things like this you
> want
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> flip
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the tables,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> and instead create armor that gives players
> more
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> speed,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> but
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> they take
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> more damage. It might seem like a small
> thing,
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> but
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> eyes of a
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> player it can make a huge difference in
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> gameplay.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> game
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> have
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> fun doing
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the things you imagine.
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Alan
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > you know the kind of cool thing about this
> too
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > we could actually make situations that you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > couldn't
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > escape from, and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > have
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > things like pits that when you fall into
> them
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > you
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > die
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > instantly and
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > return
> >> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > to the void.
> >> >>> >
>
> ...
>
> [Message clipped]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> *******************************************************************************************************************************************************************
>
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> person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that
> is privileged, confidential, or otherwise protected from disclosure.
> Distribution or copying of this e-mail, or the information contained herein,
> to anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited.
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