RE: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
- From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:02:15 -0400
It is the NyQuil gel caps, no alcohol at all in my system for 11 and 1/2
years. So, I'm not drunk, just in a severely distorted and nodding state.
Chris Hofstader
CUNY, BSO, ATG, Odds and Ends
email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
Skype: BlindChristian
phone: 727-896-6393
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of InthaneElf
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 8:28 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
well I don't know what you may be taking for your fever Sina, but as for
Chris, if he is on the big Q, then he is both drunk and high, lol!
inthane
proprietor, The Grab Bag,
for blind computer users and programmers
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
"own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!"
www.alacorncomputer.com
Owner: Agemtree
"merchants in fine facetted and cabochon gemstones"
www.agemtree.com
operator: Fruit Basket Demo Sight, where you can find a similar project done
in several programming languages, along with its source code, so you can
decide what language is right for you
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 1:12 PM
Subject: RE: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
> Same exact disclaimer here ... Writing emails while having a feavor is not
> my best work, *grin*
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
> Hofstader
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 3:55 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>
> As I said, I'm probably wrong. I'm in a NyQuil haze with a nasty cold so
> any details in my post should be viewed with a decent amount of
> skepticism.
>
>
> Chris Hofstader
> CUNY, BSO, ATG, Odds and Ends
> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
> Skype: BlindChristian
> phone: 727-896-6393
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 3:34 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>
> I remember us talking about it, but I am almost possitive it is the other
> way around, running a 32-bit VM inside of a 64-bit VM.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
> Hofstader
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 3:30 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>
> Sina, if I remember correctly, it was you who told me that one could run a
> virtual 64 bit OS in VMWare launched within a 32 bit Windows when I asked
> a
> question about it on this list. Maybe not, I didn't try it myself.
>
>
> Chris Hofstader
> CUNY, BSO, ATG, Odds and Ends
> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
> Skype: BlindChristian
> phone: 727-896-6393
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 2:58 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>
> Not sure the statement about running a 64-bit OS in a 32-bit vmware
> instance
> is correct. In fact, I'm fairly possitive this is not correct.
>
> The instruction passthroughs wouldn't make any sense.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
> Hofstader
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 2:10 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>
> You can run a 64 bit Ubuntu distribution in VMWare from a 32 bit version
> of
> Windows.
>
> VoiceOver works great on 64 bit platforms and as it is now impossible to
> buy
> a new Macintosh without a 64 bit version of OSX installed on it so,
> because
> Apple wants to make VoiceOver an integral part of the OS, it had to work
> on
> the newer processors if it was to work at all with the latest hardware
> line.
>
> I run a 32 bit XP in a VMWare window on my 64 bit Macintosh without any
> problems other than those that happen on a stand alone Windows PC.
>
>
> I must admit that I am happily surprised by how good the VoiceOver screen
> reader has become over the years and how well so many applications work
> with
> it out-of-the-box. In addition to being incredibly stable, I have yet to
> run into any of the annoying sorts of issues like losing speech for no
> apparent reason or speech repeating over and over with no obvious end in
> sight.
>
> cdh
>
>
> Chris Hofstader
> CUNY, BSO, ATG, Odds and Ends
> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
> Skype: BlindChristian
> phone: 727-896-6393
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 1:36 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>
> I know there is a 64 bit version of Python, but are you sure that NVDA
> fully runs on 64 bits. Aren't any of the APIs it uses dependent on 32
> bits? How about the software synthesizers? I am not saying that it
> does not work as well on 64 bits, but am seeking further clarification.
>
> Similarly, I'm curious how well Orca and VoiceOver work on 64 bits if
> anyone knows. Would it be possible, for example, to make the machine dual
> boot with 64 bit Linux and Orca on another partition from the 32 bit
> Vista?
>
> Jamal
> On
> Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Nimer wrote:
>
>> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:30:11 -0600
>> From: Nimer <nimerjaber1@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>>
>> NVDA does actually work with 64-bit OS, but it is limited in what it can
>> do on any OS, so I would not recommend it to just the ordinary user.
>> Thanks
>> Nimer J
>>
>> Nimer M. Jaber
>>
>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
> which it
>> is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any
> review,
>> retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in
> reliance
>> upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is
>> prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and
> delete the
>> material from any computer.
>>
>> Website:
>> http://www.empowertheblind.org
>> Phone:
>> (720) (251-4530)
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Hofstader wrote:
>> > Hey J,
>> >
>> > I've been running JAWS 9.xx.xxx on a 64 bit Core Two HP with 32 bit
> Vista
>> > loaded for about a year and a half. I haven't installed JAWS 10.xx on
>> > anything yet so cannot comment on it.
>> >
>> > My Vista box and JAWS get along relatively well and I find that,
> excepting
>> > many applications which JAWS 9 does not support adequately, the system
> works
>> > acceptably. I also find that having System Access around (I guess
> everyone
>> > has the "to go" version at their fingertips) is helpful as Monster Matt
> has
>> > made some very useful Vista things work really well with SA that are
> highly
>> > problematic with JAWS.
>> >
>> > On some specifics: JAWS 9 does great with IE, VisualStudio (using the
>> > scripts developed on this list) and a reasonably adequate job with
> Office
>> > 2007 and other programs I find useful. It is useless in the Vista
>> > voice
>> > recognition system (SA kicks ass) and most of the multi-media stuff
>> > that
> you
>> > might enjoy using to turn your new PC into a DVR or for downloading and
>> > playing movies from bit torrent and other sites.
>> >
>> > Office 2007 works reasonably well with both JAWS and SA on Vista and is
> not
>> > a 64 bit program but, like all Intel processors from 386 on forward, it
> can
>> > "step down" and run programs designed for earlier generation chips. I
> doubt
>> > Vista supports any 16 bit Windows programs but most Win32 applications
>> > should still work.
>> >
>> > The 32 bit Vista builds can only address 3.5 gb of memory with SP1,
>> > previously, it could only address 2 gb so this is an improvement. Of
>> > course, the four gb in my HP has been partially unused since I got the
>> > thing.
>> >
>> > I haven't done much more than fiddle around with Window-Eyes 6.xx on
> Vista
>> > and it worked pretty good. I wrote a bunch of blog entries last summer
>> > comparing and contrasting JAWS, WE and SA as they were then with Vista
> which
>> > might be of some value to you if you go to BC and search the blog on
> related
>> > terms.
>> >
>> > If SA and WE are at all like JAWS internally, it will probably be quite
> some
>> > time until any of them start supporting the 64 bit architecture. There
> are
>> > likely assumptions all over the place about the size of different
> elements
>> > being 32 bits and not 64. Porting from one to another, in a modern,
> clean
>> > code base will be less hard than an older one that has been hacked and
>> > repaired many times over the years as is the case with JAWS and, I'll
> assume
>> > parts of WE as well. SA has a very new code base and a whole lot less
> code
>> > to port so Monster Matt may be able to do it in relatively short order.
> I'd
>> > also guess that the NVDA guys (I haven't looked at their source with
> this
>> > problem in mind), because they are based almost entirely on documented
> API
>> > and not too much if at all on hooking hacks, may be able to take the
> jump
>> > more easily than the others.
>> >
>> > I find it discouraging in general that no current Windows screen reader
>> > supports the off-the-shelf PCs available at the consumer electronics
> stores
>> > anymore. When I worked at FS, we would often talk about trying to make
> sure
>> > JAWS would "work with the PC that will show up under the Christmas
> tree..."
>> > in any given year. More often than not, we made it (we were late with
>> > a
>> > default copy protection scheme that didn't require a floppy drive) but
> this
>> > year, it appears as if the only 64 bit screen readers will be Orca and
>> > VoiceOver and nothing (as far as I can tell) for Windows.
>> >
>> > Regarding price and performance for a standard use PC with screen
> reader, I
>> > think we're starting to hit a wall of diminishing returns. Lots of the
>> > extra horsepower and memory is great for multi-media stuff and really
>> > serious number and database crunching. Frankly, I don't do any of that
> kind
>> > of thing and the most compute intensive things I use (probably the HRTF
>> > functions in Direct X) do not, at least in my applications, bog down a
>> > relatively old 32 bit single core XP laptop and don't even come close
>> > to
> a
>> > bottleneck on my year and a half old Vista machine. I must say that
>> > the
> 64
>> > bit OSX Leopard edition on Macintosh is really peppy but comparing that
> to
>> > Windows is not a fair way to judge as the software running is also
> vastly
>> > different.
>> >
>> > I find that for price/performance for a solid PC that will do
>> > everything
> I
>> > want it to the best prices are available at www.dell.com/outlet where
> you
>> > can get a lease return with full guarantee that will contain a really
>> > kicking processor, decent sized hd, as much memory as you will need or
> want
>> > for about $350 and a very adequate PC for around $150. If you want to
> take
>> > the plunge into Macintosh, for a little over $1000 you can get a kick
> ass
>> > laptop and run XP under VMWare with the screen reader of your choice in
> a
>> > separate Window. Other than web browsing related tasks where JAWS, WE,
> SA,
>> > etc. are all better) , I find that I can get almost everything I need
>> > to
> do
>> > done well on a Macintosh with VoiceOver quickly and with a level of
>> > stability I couldn't dream of on a PC with a screen reader (at one
> point, I
>> > kept my Macintosh running non-stop for four weeks without a single need
> to
>> > reboot until I installed some new software).
>> >
>> > Ok, you asked for perspectives and I'm in a NyQuil haze after walking
> some
>> > distance through Cambridge in a downpour yesterday so this is what you
>> > get...
>> >
>> > Happy Hacking,
>> > cdh
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Chris Hofstader
>> > CUNY, BSO, ATG, Odds and Ends
>> > email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
>> > Skype: BlindChristian
>> > phone: 727-896-6393
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal
>> > Mazrui
>> > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:01 AM
>> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > Subject: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>> >
>> > About 10 days ago, I purchased a new computer from a Best Buy store in
>> > Silver Spring, Maryland. My hope was to get good value on the computer
>> > and from the store's "Geek Squad" service that delivers and installs
>> > it,
>> > including a wireless network. I had not bought a new computer in
> several
>> > years and was not familiar with hardware differences in current
> offerings.
>> > I knew I wanted the home version of Windows Vista, and asked the senior
>> > technical representative on duty for a recommendation on a computer
>> > that
>> > used "industry-standard" components as much as possible, thereby
>> > maximizing compatibility with the screen reader technology that I used.
> I
>> > emphasized memory and hard disk space over a graphics card and monitor
>> > intended for games. The representative indicated that he understood my
>> > needs and recommended a Del computer with relatively large memory and
> hard
>> > disk specifications.
>> >
>> > Last Saturday, a Geek Squad technician delivered the computer to my
> home,
>> > installed it and the wireless network. At the end of the process, he
>> > mentioned that it was a 64-bit computer. I was shocked and dismayed as
> I
>> > knew that no screen reader worked with 64-bits yet. As evidence, I had
>> > him run a copy of JAWS, which immediately said it would not work on a
>> > 64-bit computer. The technician acknowledged that it had been a
>> > mistake
>> > to recommend such a computer, particularly in the context of my request
>> > for industry-standard components, and without even asking me if 64-bits
>> > was an acceptable specification. He said he would return on Wednesday
>> > with a replacement, 32-bit computer.
>> >
>> > It had not occured to me to specify 32-bits because I had perceived it,
>> > although changing over time, as still being a feature of high-end
>> > computers intended for a circumscribed set of resource-intensive
>> > applications, rather than for customers at a Best Buy store with a
> typical
>> > consumer interest in running a range of applications, including ones
> found
>> > on the Internet.
>> >
>> > The technician was scheduled to arrive between noon and 4 PM on
> Wednesday,
>> > yesterday. I took a vacation day from work to be there, though I had
> not
>> > wanted to lose vacation time for this originally. Despite repeated
> calls
>> > I made during the day to confirm the appointment, the technician did
>> > not
>> > call me until about 4:30 from the Best Buy store, where he said he
>> > discovered no 32-bit computers available. He discussed the problem
>> > with
>> > others there and said their recommendation was to load a 32-bit version
> of
>> > Vista on the 64-bit computer I purchased. Although they had little
> actual
>> > experience with this, and were unable to contact a Del representative
>> > to
>> > confirm the approach, they were confident it would work except that
>> > only
>> > 3.5 out of the 6 gigabytes of memory would be addressable because that
> was
>> > an upper limit for 32-bit Windows. I asked but they were not willing
>> > to
>> > call other Best Buy stores in the greater DC area to check if they had
>> > a
>> > 32-bit Del computer in stock. I said I would go along with this plan,
> now
>> > scheduled for a Sunday installation at my home, but that I would have
>> > to
>> > do immediate testing of various programs to assure myself that there
> were
>> > no compatibility problems. Since it is a few days away, I thought it
> best
>> > to schedule the re-install and do some additional research in the
>> > meantime.
>> >
>> > With that background, I am seeking information and advice from list
>> > members on a few questions. Will there be no compatibility problems
> from
>> > loading 32-bit Vista and drivers on a 32-bit computer. Specifically,
>> > it
>> > is a Del Inspiron Model I530-110B.
>> >
>> > Is 3.5 gigabytes the maximum addressable memory in this case? Would
>> > the
>> > same limit be true on a 32-bit computer?
>> >
>> > I had also purchased Microsoft Office Professional 2007. They said
>> > that
>> > the same version runs on either 32-bit or 64-bit computers. Is that
>> > the
>> > case?
>> >
>> > Does anyone have more experience to share about Best Buy and Geek
>> > Squad?
>> > The representatives involved say that they usually sell 64-bit
>> > computers
>> > now. I find this surprising since I thought a majority of software
> still
>> > requires 32-bits today. Is their statement credible? Is this the
> default
>> > retail practice now?
>> >
>> > Jamal
>> >
>> > __________
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