OT: RE: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
- From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 06:59:31 -0400
I would say that my musical analogues are many: Beethoven was a pretty nasty
bastard but none of his personality takes an iota of the beauty away from
the 9th, possibly the most perfect composition in history. On a more modern
note, Miles Davis beat his wives, treated audiences badly, generally was
awful to women and had lots of other character defects that are probably
unforgivable but he also contributed and influenced much of the most
important and beautiful music in the second half of the twentieth century.
Whoa... This is way, way off topic. It's the NyQuil talking...
cdh
Chris Hofstader
CUNY, BSO, ATG, Odds and Ends
email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
Skype: BlindChristian
phone: 727-896-6393
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of InthaneElf
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:21 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
I am behind you completely in this, a bad person, or one you disagree with
does not effect the product, just your interaction with that person!
its the same principle I apply to my music, I like the songs "I'm bad",
and"thriller", I hate Jackson for what he is, but that doesn't make a
difference in the songs, and I refuse to let what I find out about the
singer, effect my future enjoyment of the songs!
regards,
inthane
proprietor, The Grab Bag,
for blind computer users and programmers
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
"own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!"
www.alacorncomputer.com
Owner: Agemtree
"merchants in fine facetted and cabochon gemstones"
www.agemtree.com
operator: Fruit Basket Demo Sight, where you can find a similar project done
in several programming languages, along with its source code, so you can
decide what language is right for you
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:19 AM
Subject: RE: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>I know Mike pretty well and, without questioning your veracity, this
>doesn't
> sound like how I've grown accustom to seeing him behave regarding elders.
> In fact, I believe that the state of New Mexico did a big roll out to
> bring
> System Access to elders throughout their system and that Mike was an
> integral part of making the project happen.
>
> Also, while any of us may find Lee Hamilton or Mike Calvo or Doug Geoffray
> or Gil Papin or whomever else entirely distasteful, we should remember not
> to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. Finding access
> technology solutions that work for ourselves and those around us at what
> we
> perceive as a fair cost is hard enough without eliminating some entries
> based on personalities. I can't say I especially find Bill Gates or Steve
> Jobs to be nice people but I use a lot of stuff from their companies
> anyway.
>
> cdh
>
>
> Chris Hofstader
> CUNY, BSO, ATG, Odds and Ends
> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
> Skype: BlindChristian
> phone: 727-896-6393
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 12:02 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>
> hi,
>
> regardless of what you say about system access, i will never use it due to
> how ignorant mr. kalvo was to one of our elderly members at a convention.
> he had the attitude that she couldn't use a computer at her age and she
> should have to forfeit the door prize.
> Bryan Schulz
> The BEST Solution
> www.best-acts.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:19 AM
> Subject: RE: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>
>
>> Hey J,
>>
>> I've been running JAWS 9.xx.xxx on a 64 bit Core Two HP with 32 bit Vista
>> loaded for about a year and a half. I haven't installed JAWS 10.xx on
>> anything yet so cannot comment on it.
>>
>> My Vista box and JAWS get along relatively well and I find that,
>> excepting
>> many applications which JAWS 9 does not support adequately, the system
>> works
>> acceptably. I also find that having System Access around (I guess
>> everyone
>> has the "to go" version at their fingertips) is helpful as Monster Matt
>> has
>> made some very useful Vista things work really well with SA that are
>> highly
>> problematic with JAWS.
>>
>> On some specifics: JAWS 9 does great with IE, VisualStudio (using the
>> scripts developed on this list) and a reasonably adequate job with Office
>> 2007 and other programs I find useful. It is useless in the Vista voice
>> recognition system (SA kicks ass) and most of the multi-media stuff that
>> you
>> might enjoy using to turn your new PC into a DVR or for downloading and
>> playing movies from bit torrent and other sites.
>>
>> Office 2007 works reasonably well with both JAWS and SA on Vista and is
>> not
>> a 64 bit program but, like all Intel processors from 386 on forward, it
>> can
>> "step down" and run programs designed for earlier generation chips. I
>> doubt
>> Vista supports any 16 bit Windows programs but most Win32 applications
>> should still work.
>>
>> The 32 bit Vista builds can only address 3.5 gb of memory with SP1,
>> previously, it could only address 2 gb so this is an improvement. Of
>> course, the four gb in my HP has been partially unused since I got the
>> thing.
>>
>> I haven't done much more than fiddle around with Window-Eyes 6.xx on
>> Vista
>> and it worked pretty good. I wrote a bunch of blog entries last summer
>> comparing and contrasting JAWS, WE and SA as they were then with Vista
>> which
>> might be of some value to you if you go to BC and search the blog on
>> related
>> terms.
>>
>> If SA and WE are at all like JAWS internally, it will probably be quite
>> some
>> time until any of them start supporting the 64 bit architecture. There
>> are
>> likely assumptions all over the place about the size of different
>> elements
>> being 32 bits and not 64. Porting from one to another, in a modern,
>> clean
>> code base will be less hard than an older one that has been hacked and
>> repaired many times over the years as is the case with JAWS and, I'll
>> assume
>> parts of WE as well. SA has a very new code base and a whole lot less
>> code
>> to port so Monster Matt may be able to do it in relatively short order.
>> I'd
>> also guess that the NVDA guys (I haven't looked at their source with this
>> problem in mind), because they are based almost entirely on documented
>> API
>> and not too much if at all on hooking hacks, may be able to take the jump
>> more easily than the others.
>>
>> I find it discouraging in general that no current Windows screen reader
>> supports the off-the-shelf PCs available at the consumer electronics
>> stores
>> anymore. When I worked at FS, we would often talk about trying to make
>> sure
>> JAWS would "work with the PC that will show up under the Christmas
>> tree..."
>> in any given year. More often than not, we made it (we were late with a
>> default copy protection scheme that didn't require a floppy drive) but
>> this
>> year, it appears as if the only 64 bit screen readers will be Orca and
>> VoiceOver and nothing (as far as I can tell) for Windows.
>>
>> Regarding price and performance for a standard use PC with screen reader,
>> I
>> think we're starting to hit a wall of diminishing returns. Lots of the
>> extra horsepower and memory is great for multi-media stuff and really
>> serious number and database crunching. Frankly, I don't do any of that
>> kind
>> of thing and the most compute intensive things I use (probably the HRTF
>> functions in Direct X) do not, at least in my applications, bog down a
>> relatively old 32 bit single core XP laptop and don't even come close to
>> a
>> bottleneck on my year and a half old Vista machine. I must say that the
>> 64
>> bit OSX Leopard edition on Macintosh is really peppy but comparing that
>> to
>> Windows is not a fair way to judge as the software running is also vastly
>> different.
>>
>> I find that for price/performance for a solid PC that will do everything
>> I
>> want it to the best prices are available at www.dell.com/outlet where you
>> can get a lease return with full guarantee that will contain a really
>> kicking processor, decent sized hd, as much memory as you will need or
>> want
>> for about $350 and a very adequate PC for around $150. If you want to
>> take
>> the plunge into Macintosh, for a little over $1000 you can get a kick ass
>> laptop and run XP under VMWare with the screen reader of your choice in a
>> separate Window. Other than web browsing related tasks where JAWS, WE,
>> SA,
>> etc. are all better) , I find that I can get almost everything I need to
>> do
>> done well on a Macintosh with VoiceOver quickly and with a level of
>> stability I couldn't dream of on a PC with a screen reader (at one point,
>> I
>> kept my Macintosh running non-stop for four weeks without a single need
>> to
>> reboot until I installed some new software).
>>
>> Ok, you asked for perspectives and I'm in a NyQuil haze after walking
>> some
>> distance through Cambridge in a downpour yesterday so this is what you
>> get...
>>
>> Happy Hacking,
>> cdh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Hofstader
>> CUNY, BSO, ATG, Odds and Ends
>> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
>> Skype: BlindChristian
>> phone: 727-896-6393
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
>> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:01 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Seeking perspectives on a computer purchasing predicament
>>
>> About 10 days ago, I purchased a new computer from a Best Buy store in
>> Silver Spring, Maryland. My hope was to get good value on the computer
>> and from the store's "Geek Squad" service that delivers and installs it,
>> including a wireless network. I had not bought a new computer in several
>> years and was not familiar with hardware differences in current
>> offerings.
>> I knew I wanted the home version of Windows Vista, and asked the senior
>> technical representative on duty for a recommendation on a computer that
>> used "industry-standard" components as much as possible, thereby
>> maximizing compatibility with the screen reader technology that I used.
>> I
>> emphasized memory and hard disk space over a graphics card and monitor
>> intended for games. The representative indicated that he understood my
>> needs and recommended a Del computer with relatively large memory and
>> hard
>> disk specifications.
>>
>> Last Saturday, a Geek Squad technician delivered the computer to my home,
>> installed it and the wireless network. At the end of the process, he
>> mentioned that it was a 64-bit computer. I was shocked and dismayed as I
>> knew that no screen reader worked with 64-bits yet. As evidence, I had
>> him run a copy of JAWS, which immediately said it would not work on a
>> 64-bit computer. The technician acknowledged that it had been a mistake
>> to recommend such a computer, particularly in the context of my request
>> for industry-standard components, and without even asking me if 64-bits
>> was an acceptable specification. He said he would return on Wednesday
>> with a replacement, 32-bit computer.
>>
>> It had not occured to me to specify 32-bits because I had perceived it,
>> although changing over time, as still being a feature of high-end
>> computers intended for a circumscribed set of resource-intensive
>> applications, rather than for customers at a Best Buy store with a
>> typical
>> consumer interest in running a range of applications, including ones
>> found
>> on the Internet.
>>
>> The technician was scheduled to arrive between noon and 4 PM on
>> Wednesday,
>> yesterday. I took a vacation day from work to be there, though I had not
>> wanted to lose vacation time for this originally. Despite repeated calls
>> I made during the day to confirm the appointment, the technician did not
>> call me until about 4:30 from the Best Buy store, where he said he
>> discovered no 32-bit computers available. He discussed the problem with
>> others there and said their recommendation was to load a 32-bit version
>> of
>> Vista on the 64-bit computer I purchased. Although they had little
>> actual
>> experience with this, and were unable to contact a Del representative to
>> confirm the approach, they were confident it would work except that only
>> 3.5 out of the 6 gigabytes of memory would be addressable because that
>> was
>> an upper limit for 32-bit Windows. I asked but they were not willing to
>> call other Best Buy stores in the greater DC area to check if they had a
>> 32-bit Del computer in stock. I said I would go along with this plan,
>> now
>> scheduled for a Sunday installation at my home, but that I would have to
>> do immediate testing of various programs to assure myself that there were
>> no compatibility problems. Since it is a few days away, I thought it
>> best
>> to schedule the re-install and do some additional research in the
>> meantime.
>>
>> With that background, I am seeking information and advice from list
>> members on a few questions. Will there be no compatibility problems from
>> loading 32-bit Vista and drivers on a 32-bit computer. Specifically, it
>> is a Del Inspiron Model I530-110B.
>>
>> Is 3.5 gigabytes the maximum addressable memory in this case? Would the
>> same limit be true on a 32-bit computer?
>>
>> I had also purchased Microsoft Office Professional 2007. They said that
>> the same version runs on either 32-bit or 64-bit computers. Is that the
>> case?
>>
>> Does anyone have more experience to share about Best Buy and Geek Squad?
>> The representatives involved say that they usually sell 64-bit computers
>> now. I find this surprising since I thought a majority of software still
>> requires 32-bits today. Is their statement credible? Is this the
>> default
>> retail practice now?
>>
>> Jamal
>>
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