Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
- From: Alex Midence <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 00:06:17 -0500
Oh, it's c++. It was microsoft visual studio express c++. You have
to go in and disable the extended language options flag /ze and change
it to flag /za for it to run ansi c++. You thin have to do other
things like make sure you aren't using win32 as your platform but,
rather empty. This, of course, is what I understood to be going on
when I looked into it a bit more. Beginning c++ by Her Schilde also
states that you have to use a special set of flags in the command line
to compile straight c++ because VS was designed primarily to make
windows applications. So, Microsoft added stuff to it that other
compilers don't have and modified a few things. It was moste
enlightening. I took the exact same code I wasn't successful at
running in ms vs c++ and ran it through minGw's compiler and it just
... worked. No messages telling me my code was "out of date" or
anything. I'm not casting aspertions on visual studio here, mind.
I'm just saying it appears a bit more advanced than what I need for
what I'm doing this early in the game. I won't be ready to learn how
to work with these "language extensions" of theirs until I have the
actual language down enough to understand how they deviate. In fact,
while looking up a link I might include as a reference in this reply,
I came across something that might give someone much more proficient
than myself pause with visual studio 2010. It seems they changed a
few things such that code made in prior versions might not compile
successfuly in the 2010 version without some modifications. I
remember when asked everyone to look at my little hello world code,
some kept refering to visual c++ 2008 which, incidentally, I wasnt
able to download due to 2010 being out. See below:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2009/05/25/stl-breaking-changes-in-visual-studio-2010-beta-1.aspx
Looks like the full version retained the issues taht the beta one did.
Thanks
Alex
On 6/30/10, Tyler Littlefield <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I'm not sure what you mean it doesn't produce standard c++. Despite
> microsoft's faults, gv++ is pretty good. Make sure your actually using c++,
> and not c++.net.
> Thanks,
> Tyler Littlefield
> http://tds-solutions.net
> Twitter: sorressean
>
> On Jun 30, 2010, at 10:18 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
>
>> Hi, folks,
>>
>> This thread hit sorta close to home for me. As I have mentioned
>> before, I, myself, am learning how to code and I decided to hop out of
>> the proverbial airplane because my language of choice is c++. I began
>> with visual studio simply because it was the first compiler and ide I
>> found that was easy to get to in google and that was free. I figured
>> it'd work best because it was made by the very people who made the
>> operating system. I then attempted to apply what I was learning from
>> various tutorials in this ide and came to a screeching halt because it
>> turns out that this ide doesn't produce "standard c++" unleass you
>> tweak it. All the tutorials I was following teach standard c++. I
>> then hauled off and got eclipse only to find I needed a compiler to go
>> with it. Went and got myself minGw and was still not able to compile
>> because I needed to mess with settings in the eclipse ide that I was
>> unfamiliar with to let it know where the compiler was and which one to
>> use. It wasn't until I just went in and actually wrote my code into a
>> no frills text editor (notepad, yes, notepad), saved my file as cpp
>> and then compiled in a command line that I got my program to work. I
>> learned a whole lot on the way and look forward to learning more. The
>> most fundamental lesson I learned was to just work with the raw code
>> and command line compiler first before jumping into these ide's. This
>> lets me focus on just the language, what it's doing, how it's doig it
>> and the act of compiling it. I don't have to worry about a
>> potentially inaccessible piece of software cutting into my learning of
>> the code. And, it appears I'll get a fuller understanding of what's
>> actually going on because I'm doing so much of it by hand. It's like
>> making yourself a batch of refried beans starting with the raw beans,
>> cooking them in a pot and then frying them afterwards. You did it all
>> from scratch instead of just grabbing a can of beans, opening it up
>> and heating it up on the stove before serving. Best of all, my
>> programs have so far worked like the tutorials said they would. So,
>> Jess, my advice to you is this:
>>
>> Get yourself a nice text editor like edSharp, text pad, ps pad or,
>> even notepad which you already have. Then, go get yourself a free
>> compiler in the language you choose. I chose c++ because it seems to
>> really force you to learn some nuts and bolts and doesn't have the
>> feel of some wussy gussied up toy language like visual basic with
>> pretty buttons and nice forms and icons and all that mess. It's also
>> the language that a huge number of applications are written in which
>> leads me to believe that, once I am done learning the basics, I'll be
>> able to really do something with it in exchange for all my bloodsweat
>> and tears. You choose whatever one you feel you want to though but,
>> just stick to the text editor and compiler method for your first
>> handful of programs and you'll be better off. Whatever you do,
>> though, don't give up over visual studio.
>>
>> Just my two cents as a fellow neophyte. Hang in there.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>> On 6/30/10, Tyler Littlefield <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> It won't compile actually, you missed a comma.
>>> int main(int argc, char** argv)
>>> :)
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> Twitter: sorressean
>>>
>>> On Jun 30, 2010, at 9:40 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> Um how hard is this
>>>>
>>>> //myfile.c
>>>> #include <stdlib.h>
>>>> #include <stdio.h>
>>>> Int main (int argc char *arv)
>>>> {
>>>> Printf ("hello world");
>>>> Return (0);
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Gcc myfile.c -o myfile
>>>>
>>>> There I just wrote a program that will compile in this email. I didn't
>>>> need
>>>> an ide I didn't need to drop buttons what I could focus on was the code.
>>>> The problem is you are confusing learning to code with learning to
>>>> program
>>>> applications. Sure I don't want to start my first full blown
>>>> application
>>>> writing it at the command line creating the graphical widgets etc. I do
>>>> how
>>>> ever want to start with a simple step by step method. I could write a
>>>> simple program to take input in only a couple more lines of code and see
>>>> the
>>>> results instantly. If I get errors the errors would pop up instantly
>>>> you
>>>> wouldn't have to hunt for the window they are in. In c variables must
>>>> be
>>>> at
>>>> the top of every code segment or {} section. In languages like VB and
>>>> c++
>>>> and C# you can throw in variable declarations any where. Which is
>>>> easier
>>>> to
>>>> teach someone put your variables here or hey throw them any where and
>>>> then
>>>> try and hunt down where the error is?
>>>>
>>>> I could go on but I have had this argument with professors and at least
>>>> held my own if not won from time to time. Its great if all you want to
>>>> do
>>>> is make a sited person happy that they made a simple application but if
>>>> you
>>>> really trying to teach them to code and to continue to learn to code
>>>> then
>>>> you shouldn't lose them in the manusia before they understand what they
>>>> are
>>>> doing.
>>>>
>>>> Now I chalange you to teach me to write a visual basic application in
>>>> the
>>>> next email you write to this list. Make it write a message to the
>>>> screen
>>>> and do it from the IDE. See how many steps you have to explain.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ken
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie
>>>> McBride
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:10 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>
>>>> Well, Ken, as I see it, programming is divided into 2 major areas:
>>>> 1) Learning to think/problem-solve in the way the computer does; & then
>>>> 2) Learning whatever language u need that will fit the sort of
>>>> applications you're coding.
>>>>
>>>> It's a tough road to do both at the same time, & it's why I recommend
>>>> learning something easier at first, e.g., basic, Python, etc. Once
>>>> folks kind of get the concepts of how to use the compiler/interpreter
>>>> & instruct the computer to do what they want, then the next logical
>>>> progression is something like C. But I think learning C initially is
>>>> rather like what my dad did to me when I was 4--threw me into Lake
>>>> Michigan in 62 degree water over my head. Not fun. &, no, it did not
>>>> teach me to swim any better or any earlier, believe me.
>>>>
>>>> In retrospect, I rather like the way I approached things--I taught
>>>> myself Basic, which I used (& rather effectively, I might add) to sort
>>>> patient visits by date for tax purposes when I was in practice because
>>>> my crazy billing program didn't. Then I went on to learn C. It worked
>>>> well. That is not to say it will work well for others. Then I got some
>>>> formal programming training, & I believe what I'd taught myself
>>>> previously stood me in very good stead for learning that.
>>>>
>>>> Each person has to go his/her own way, I guess, but I think a gentler
>>>> intro than C is more beneficial for those who are self-taught. Just my
>>>> $.02--& what do I know? You're the 1 making a living at it, not mwa.
>>>>
>>>> On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> Actually I know someone who does professional programming who has his
>>>> degree
>>>>> in electronics and only took two coding classes which he could have
>>>>> taught
>>>>> when he took hem. College is not all it's cracked up to be but that is
>>>>> another argument.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand that Jess is using vs but that don't mean he or she has
>>>>> to.
>>>> In
>>>>> fact I ended up having to learn the Microsoft build system because the
>>>>> VS
>>>>> ide wouldn't do the cross compile system I wanted it to so I had to
>>>>> get
>>>> out
>>>>> of VS and create the build xml file by hand which you can do. Heck for
>>>> that
>>>>> matter you can code in VB by hand and actually use a compiler which
>>>>> gets
>>>> you
>>>>> out of the graphical IDE and lets you learn to code. In fact you can
>>>>> find
>>>> a
>>>>> few examples of this up on the fruit basket page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:29 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ken: Jes said he is working in the VS IDE already. I don't know if
>>>>> it
>>>> is
>>>>> for school, for work or just for fun. OK, let me set my point clear...
>>>>> A
>>>>> person needs to get a good University Education in Computer Programming
>>>>> or
>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>> related field to work in that arena. You can not become a Professional
>>>>> Programmer by playing with Visual Studio. You can, however, get help on
>>>> list
>>>>>
>>>>> with Visual Studio and it is fine, if you have the patients, for
>>>>> learning
>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> do some programming as a hobbyist. The things we never talk about to
>>>>> nubes
>>>>> is the process of learning to turn a step by step analysis of solving
>>>>> business, engineering or technical problems into computer code. That is
>>>>> where a University Education comes in.. Once that skill is mastered
>>>>> then
>>>> it
>>>>> becomes a matter of learning a Programming Language and coding up a
>>>>> solution. Using a IDE is just a time saving step after you have done
>>>>> the
>>>>> former learning processes. When I see someone asking to learn to become
>>>>> a
>>>>> Computer Programmer by reading books and learning on their own I assume
>>>> they
>>>>>
>>>>> are trying to do it as a hobby. I can't imagine anyone in their right
>>>>> mind
>>>>> would seriously consider trying to learn to become a Professional
>>>>> Computer
>>>>> Programmer and compete in the Job Market without a formal education -
>>>>> it
>>>>> just seems like so much nonsense. There might be one or two out there
>>>>> who
>>>>> did it that way but 99+ percent have taken University Courses if they
>>>>> work
>>>>> in the field. Jes said he was working on a project in VS IDE, having
>>>>> problems and the process I outlined just touched bases with the things
>>>>> he
>>>>> needed to ensure he did, and did correctly, to get his project up and
>>>>> running. The blurb about learning Programming ie... IPO, was just to
>>>>> start
>>>>> the brain working in thinking about inputs, outputs and Processing as 3
>>>>> things that need to be done, sigh, and even that is diferent in today's
>>>> OOP
>>>>> world.
>>>>> Rick USA.
>>>>> Message -----
>>>>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:47 PM
>>>>> Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am sorry Rick but this is what is wrong with most coders coming out
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> college now days. They code by the drop button and create if
>>>>>> statement
>>>>>> method. Have you actually looked at Job listings. A person that
>>>>>> learns
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> code the way you just laid out whether they be sited or blind will be
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> bottom of the barrel. Some jobs asks for Visual studio but a monkey
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> make a form and add an if statement to it to make a button do
>>>>>> something.
>>>>>> If
>>>>>> a person wants to be a coder they need to be make sure they are not
>>>>>> getting
>>>>>> themselves where they can be put out by some new AI programming
>>>>>> language
>>>>>> that can make the forms straight from a design chart created by a
>>>>>> secretary. That type of coding can be done by anyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Colleges switched to GUI environments to make money because any sited
>>>>>> person
>>>>>> can create a half baked program with them. They did the same thing to
>>>> the
>>>>>> electronics field with places like ITT and other tech schools that
>>>>>> taught
>>>>>> half baked electronics. Now I am not saying a good electronics person
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> good coder can't come from the easy road what I am saying is it is
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> unlikely that one will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If on the other hand you start with a compiled language or an
>>>>>> assembled
>>>>>> language you will understand what is going on. You shouldn't even
>>>>>> worry
>>>>>> about the GUI till you know how programs are logically put together
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> why.
>>>>>> Otherwise we are going to need that 48 core computer and 12 TB of ram
>>>> just
>>>>>> to run the next text editor because we as coders are getting
>>>>>> slipperier
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> messier because we don't understand what is going on under the engine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway I have ranted enough but a person that is just getting started
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be better to start in straight C and learn what memory was, how to
>>>>>> deal
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> pointers, and understand what a register is because in the long run if
>>>>>> you're really going to be a coder not a monkey dialog maker you will
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> that information and if you think you have become a coder by creating
>>>> some
>>>>>> monkey dialogs you will find yourself very screwed when you take that
>>>>>> job
>>>>>> you are not even close to ready for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:18 PM
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, Programming in today's world is a world apart from where we use
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be. It is so much simpler in some ways and light years more complex in
>>>>>> other
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ways. Programming in the Visual Studio IDE takes a large learning
>>>>>> curve.
>>>>>> You
>>>>>>
>>>>>> need to install and configure that puppy. Fail to do this and you
>>>>>> will
>>>> be
>>>>>> hearing more junk and losing focus more than an intrevert at a rock
>>>>>> concert.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is a pain itself. Then, if you run JAWS you need to configure
>>>>>> JAWS,
>>>>>> again better get it right. Then after you get all that done you can
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IDE and look at a bunch of buttons and dialogs that have seemingly
>>>> nothing
>>>>>> to do with creating a computer program using computer statements. And,
>>>> God
>>>>>> Forbid, You try and download and install Sql Server Express, well, you
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> be headed for gray hair if you are one of the lucky few who get that
>>>>>> far.
>>>>>> You absolutely need to configure the IDE for accessibility, pick the
>>>>>> ssimpelest language, vb.net, to start with and create your first Hello
>>>>>> World
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Form from the Form1 file. That is after you create a new project of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Windows Forms type. Then you can drop a couple of buttons, a textbox
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the Form1 designer, set their properties and code the related VB Code
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the Button Click Events and mess with the Text Properties of the
>>>>>> TextBoxes.
>>>>>> If you get that far you will be on your way to learning to Program in
>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Studio. I would start with the Vb.net Express module since it does not
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> all the other languages and is just a little cleaner to start with.
>>>>>> Once
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>
>>>>>> get the nack of making a form do things like Display Output to a user,
>>>>>> Read
>>>>>> Inputs from a user and do some Processing on the input, you have the
>>>> basic
>>>>>> understanding of what computer programming is really about IPO, Input
>>>>>> /
>>>>>> Process / Output. If you jump into C++, Visual Studio IDE and a DB you
>>>> are
>>>>>> jumping out of an airplane and flapping as hard as you can but you can
>>>>>> pretty much guess the final result. But, Give Up? Did We Give Up when
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor? No, when the going gets tough - the tough
>>>> ask
>>>>>> questions on list and follow up with more work!
>>>>>> Rick USA
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Jes" <theeternalkid@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:59 PM
>>>>>> Subject: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All I get when using visual studio are nothing but errors! I just want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>
>>>>>> able to write a program and have it work! Just once! But no. All I get
>>>> are
>>>>>> errors! So what's the use in even trying? Encouragement needed badly!
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>> Jes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Change the world--1 deed at a time
>>>> Jackie McBride
>>>> Scripting Classes: http://jawsscripting.lonsdalemedia.org
>>>> homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
>>>> For technophobes: www.technophoeb.com
>>>> __________
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