RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 00:43:01 -0400
Nod Microsoft is standard c++ and c when you ditch .net.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tyler
Littlefield
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 12:23 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
I'm not sure what you mean it doesn't produce standard c++. Despite
microsoft's faults, gv++ is pretty good. Make sure your actually using c++,
and not c++.net.
Thanks,
Tyler Littlefield
http://tds-solutions.net
Twitter: sorressean
On Jun 30, 2010, at 10:18 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
> Hi, folks,
>
> This thread hit sorta close to home for me. As I have mentioned
> before, I, myself, am learning how to code and I decided to hop out of
> the proverbial airplane because my language of choice is c++. I began
> with visual studio simply because it was the first compiler and ide I
> found that was easy to get to in google and that was free. I figured
> it'd work best because it was made by the very people who made the
> operating system. I then attempted to apply what I was learning from
> various tutorials in this ide and came to a screeching halt because it
> turns out that this ide doesn't produce "standard c++" unleass you
> tweak it. All the tutorials I was following teach standard c++. I
> then hauled off and got eclipse only to find I needed a compiler to go
> with it. Went and got myself minGw and was still not able to compile
> because I needed to mess with settings in the eclipse ide that I was
> unfamiliar with to let it know where the compiler was and which one to
> use. It wasn't until I just went in and actually wrote my code into a
> no frills text editor (notepad, yes, notepad), saved my file as cpp
> and then compiled in a command line that I got my program to work. I
> learned a whole lot on the way and look forward to learning more. The
> most fundamental lesson I learned was to just work with the raw code
> and command line compiler first before jumping into these ide's. This
> lets me focus on just the language, what it's doing, how it's doig it
> and the act of compiling it. I don't have to worry about a
> potentially inaccessible piece of software cutting into my learning of
> the code. And, it appears I'll get a fuller understanding of what's
> actually going on because I'm doing so much of it by hand. It's like
> making yourself a batch of refried beans starting with the raw beans,
> cooking them in a pot and then frying them afterwards. You did it all
> from scratch instead of just grabbing a can of beans, opening it up
> and heating it up on the stove before serving. Best of all, my
> programs have so far worked like the tutorials said they would. So,
> Jess, my advice to you is this:
>
> Get yourself a nice text editor like edSharp, text pad, ps pad or,
> even notepad which you already have. Then, go get yourself a free
> compiler in the language you choose. I chose c++ because it seems to
> really force you to learn some nuts and bolts and doesn't have the
> feel of some wussy gussied up toy language like visual basic with
> pretty buttons and nice forms and icons and all that mess. It's also
> the language that a huge number of applications are written in which
> leads me to believe that, once I am done learning the basics, I'll be
> able to really do something with it in exchange for all my bloodsweat
> and tears. You choose whatever one you feel you want to though but,
> just stick to the text editor and compiler method for your first
> handful of programs and you'll be better off. Whatever you do,
> though, don't give up over visual studio.
>
> Just my two cents as a fellow neophyte. Hang in there.
>
> Alex
>
>
> On 6/30/10, Tyler Littlefield <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> It won't compile actually, you missed a comma.
>> int main(int argc, char** argv)
>> :)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tyler Littlefield
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> Twitter: sorressean
>>
>> On Jun 30, 2010, at 9:40 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>
>>> Um how hard is this
>>>
>>> //myfile.c
>>> #include <stdlib.h>
>>> #include <stdio.h>
>>> Int main (int argc char *arv)
>>> {
>>> Printf ("hello world");
>>> Return (0);
>>> }
>>>
>>> Gcc myfile.c -o myfile
>>>
>>> There I just wrote a program that will compile in this email. I didn't
>>> need
>>> an ide I didn't need to drop buttons what I could focus on was the code.
>>> The problem is you are confusing learning to code with learning to
program
>>> applications. Sure I don't want to start my first full blown
application
>>> writing it at the command line creating the graphical widgets etc. I do
>>> how
>>> ever want to start with a simple step by step method. I could write a
>>> simple program to take input in only a couple more lines of code and see
>>> the
>>> results instantly. If I get errors the errors would pop up instantly
you
>>> wouldn't have to hunt for the window they are in. In c variables must
be
>>> at
>>> the top of every code segment or {} section. In languages like VB and
c++
>>> and C# you can throw in variable declarations any where. Which is
easier
>>> to
>>> teach someone put your variables here or hey throw them any where and
then
>>> try and hunt down where the error is?
>>>
>>> I could go on but I have had this argument with professors and at least
>>> held my own if not won from time to time. Its great if all you want to
do
>>> is make a sited person happy that they made a simple application but if
>>> you
>>> really trying to teach them to code and to continue to learn to code
then
>>> you shouldn't lose them in the manusia before they understand what they
>>> are
>>> doing.
>>>
>>> Now I chalange you to teach me to write a visual basic application in
the
>>> next email you write to this list. Make it write a message to the
screen
>>> and do it from the IDE. See how many steps you have to explain.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ken
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie
McBride
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:10 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>
>>> Well, Ken, as I see it, programming is divided into 2 major areas:
>>> 1) Learning to think/problem-solve in the way the computer does; & then
>>> 2) Learning whatever language u need that will fit the sort of
>>> applications you're coding.
>>>
>>> It's a tough road to do both at the same time, & it's why I recommend
>>> learning something easier at first, e.g., basic, Python, etc. Once
>>> folks kind of get the concepts of how to use the compiler/interpreter
>>> & instruct the computer to do what they want, then the next logical
>>> progression is something like C. But I think learning C initially is
>>> rather like what my dad did to me when I was 4--threw me into Lake
>>> Michigan in 62 degree water over my head. Not fun. &, no, it did not
>>> teach me to swim any better or any earlier, believe me.
>>>
>>> In retrospect, I rather like the way I approached things--I taught
>>> myself Basic, which I used (& rather effectively, I might add) to sort
>>> patient visits by date for tax purposes when I was in practice because
>>> my crazy billing program didn't. Then I went on to learn C. It worked
>>> well. That is not to say it will work well for others. Then I got some
>>> formal programming training, & I believe what I'd taught myself
>>> previously stood me in very good stead for learning that.
>>>
>>> Each person has to go his/her own way, I guess, but I think a gentler
>>> intro than C is more beneficial for those who are self-taught. Just my
>>> $.02--& what do I know? You're the 1 making a living at it, not mwa.
>>>
>>> On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Actually I know someone who does professional programming who has his
>>> degree
>>>> in electronics and only took two coding classes which he could have
>>>> taught
>>>> when he took hem. College is not all it's cracked up to be but that is
>>>> another argument.
>>>>
>>>> I understand that Jess is using vs but that don't mean he or she has
to.
>>> In
>>>> fact I ended up having to learn the Microsoft build system because the
VS
>>>> ide wouldn't do the cross compile system I wanted it to so I had to
get
>>> out
>>>> of VS and create the build xml file by hand which you can do. Heck for
>>> that
>>>> matter you can code in VB by hand and actually use a compiler which
gets
>>> you
>>>> out of the graphical IDE and lets you learn to code. In fact you can
>>>> find
>>> a
>>>> few examples of this up on the fruit basket page.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:29 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ken: Jes said he is working in the VS IDE already. I don't know if
it
>>> is
>>>> for school, for work or just for fun. OK, let me set my point clear...
A
>>>> person needs to get a good University Education in Computer Programming
>>>> or
>>> a
>>>>
>>>> related field to work in that arena. You can not become a Professional
>>>> Programmer by playing with Visual Studio. You can, however, get help on
>>> list
>>>>
>>>> with Visual Studio and it is fine, if you have the patients, for
learning
>>> to
>>>>
>>>> do some programming as a hobbyist. The things we never talk about to
>>>> nubes
>>>> is the process of learning to turn a step by step analysis of solving
>>>> business, engineering or technical problems into computer code. That is
>>>> where a University Education comes in.. Once that skill is mastered
then
>>> it
>>>> becomes a matter of learning a Programming Language and coding up a
>>>> solution. Using a IDE is just a time saving step after you have done
the
>>>> former learning processes. When I see someone asking to learn to become
a
>>>> Computer Programmer by reading books and learning on their own I assume
>>> they
>>>>
>>>> are trying to do it as a hobby. I can't imagine anyone in their right
>>>> mind
>>>> would seriously consider trying to learn to become a Professional
>>>> Computer
>>>> Programmer and compete in the Job Market without a formal education -
it
>>>> just seems like so much nonsense. There might be one or two out there
who
>>>> did it that way but 99+ percent have taken University Courses if they
>>>> work
>>>> in the field. Jes said he was working on a project in VS IDE, having
>>>> problems and the process I outlined just touched bases with the things
he
>>>> needed to ensure he did, and did correctly, to get his project up and
>>>> running. The blurb about learning Programming ie... IPO, was just to
>>>> start
>>>> the brain working in thinking about inputs, outputs and Processing as 3
>>>> things that need to be done, sigh, and even that is diferent in today's
>>> OOP
>>>> world.
>>>> Rick USA.
>>>> Message -----
>>>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:47 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sorry Rick but this is what is wrong with most coders coming out
of
>>>>> college now days. They code by the drop button and create if
statement
>>>>> method. Have you actually looked at Job listings. A person that
learns
>>>>> to
>>>>> code the way you just laid out whether they be sited or blind will be
>>>>> the
>>>>> bottom of the barrel. Some jobs asks for Visual studio but a monkey
can
>>>>> make a form and add an if statement to it to make a button do
something.
>>>>> If
>>>>> a person wants to be a coder they need to be make sure they are not
>>>>> getting
>>>>> themselves where they can be put out by some new AI programming
language
>>>>> that can make the forms straight from a design chart created by a
>>>>> secretary. That type of coding can be done by anyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Colleges switched to GUI environments to make money because any sited
>>>>> person
>>>>> can create a half baked program with them. They did the same thing to
>>> the
>>>>> electronics field with places like ITT and other tech schools that
>>>>> taught
>>>>> half baked electronics. Now I am not saying a good electronics person
>>>>> or
>>>>> a
>>>>> good coder can't come from the easy road what I am saying is it is
much
>>>>> more
>>>>> unlikely that one will.
>>>>>
>>>>> If on the other hand you start with a compiled language or an
assembled
>>>>> language you will understand what is going on. You shouldn't even
worry
>>>>> about the GUI till you know how programs are logically put together
and
>>>>> why.
>>>>> Otherwise we are going to need that 48 core computer and 12 TB of ram
>>> just
>>>>> to run the next text editor because we as coders are getting
slipperier
>>>>> and
>>>>> messier because we don't understand what is going on under the engine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway I have ranted enough but a person that is just getting started
>>>>> would
>>>>> be better to start in straight C and learn what memory was, how to
deal
>>>>> with
>>>>> pointers, and understand what a register is because in the long run if
>>>>> you're really going to be a coder not a monkey dialog maker you will
>>>>> need
>>>>> that information and if you think you have become a coder by creating
>>> some
>>>>> monkey dialogs you will find yourself very screwed when you take that
>>>>> job
>>>>> you are not even close to ready for.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:18 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>>
>>>>> First, Programming in today's world is a world apart from where we use
>>>>> to
>>>>> be. It is so much simpler in some ways and light years more complex in
>>>>> other
>>>>>
>>>>> ways. Programming in the Visual Studio IDE takes a large learning
curve.
>>>>> You
>>>>>
>>>>> need to install and configure that puppy. Fail to do this and you
will
>>> be
>>>>> hearing more junk and losing focus more than an intrevert at a rock
>>>>> concert.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is a pain itself. Then, if you run JAWS you need to configure
JAWS,
>>>>> again better get it right. Then after you get all that done you can
open
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> IDE and look at a bunch of buttons and dialogs that have seemingly
>>> nothing
>>>>> to do with creating a computer program using computer statements. And,
>>> God
>>>>> Forbid, You try and download and install Sql Server Express, well, you
>>>>> will
>>>>> be headed for gray hair if you are one of the lucky few who get that
>>>>> far.
>>>>> You absolutely need to configure the IDE for accessibility, pick the
>>>>> ssimpelest language, vb.net, to start with and create your first Hello
>>>>> World
>>>>>
>>>>> Form from the Form1 file. That is after you create a new project of
the
>>>>> Windows Forms type. Then you can drop a couple of buttons, a textbox
or
>>>>> 2
>>>>> on
>>>>>
>>>>> the Form1 designer, set their properties and code the related VB Code
>>>>> for
>>>>> the Button Click Events and mess with the Text Properties of the
>>>>> TextBoxes.
>>>>> If you get that far you will be on your way to learning to Program in
>>>>> Visual
>>>>>
>>>>> Studio. I would start with the Vb.net Express module since it does not
>>>>> have
>>>>> all the other languages and is just a little cleaner to start with.
Once
>>>>> you
>>>>>
>>>>> get the nack of making a form do things like Display Output to a user,
>>>>> Read
>>>>> Inputs from a user and do some Processing on the input, you have the
>>> basic
>>>>> understanding of what computer programming is really about IPO, Input
/
>>>>> Process / Output. If you jump into C++, Visual Studio IDE and a DB you
>>> are
>>>>> jumping out of an airplane and flapping as hard as you can but you can
>>>>> pretty much guess the final result. But, Give Up? Did We Give Up when
>>>>> the
>>>>> Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor? No, when the going gets tough - the tough
>>> ask
>>>>> questions on list and follow up with more work!
>>>>> Rick USA
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jes" <theeternalkid@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:59 PM
>>>>> Subject: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> All I get when using visual studio are nothing but errors! I just want
>>>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>>
>>>>> able to write a program and have it work! Just once! But no. All I get
>>> are
>>>>> errors! So what's the use in even trying? Encouragement needed badly!
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>> Jes
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
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>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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>>>>> __________
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> __________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Change the world--1 deed at a time
>>> Jackie McBride
>>> Scripting Classes: http://jawsscripting.lonsdalemedia.org
>>> homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
>>> For technophobes: www.technophoeb.com
>>> __________
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>>
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