RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!

  • From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:40:49 -0400

Um how hard is this

#include <stdlib.h>
#include <stdio.h>
Int main (int argc char *arv)
Printf ("hello world");
Return (0);

Gcc myfile.c -o myfile

There I just wrote a program that will compile in this email.  I didn't need
an ide I didn't need to drop buttons what I could focus on was the code.
The problem is you are confusing learning to code with learning to program
applications.  Sure I don't want to start my first full blown application
writing it at the command line creating the graphical widgets etc.  I do how
ever want to start with a simple step by step method.  I could write a
simple program to take input in only a couple more lines of code and see the
results instantly.  If I get errors the errors would pop up instantly you
wouldn't have to hunt for the window they are in.  In c variables must be at
the top of every code segment or {} section.  In languages like VB and c++
and C# you can throw in variable declarations any where.  Which is easier to
teach someone put your variables here or hey throw them any where and then
try and hunt down where the error is?

 I could go on but I have had this argument with professors and at least
held my own if not won from time to time.  Its great if all you want to do
is make a sited person happy that they made a simple application but if you
really trying to teach them to code and to continue to learn to code then
you shouldn't lose them in the manusia before they understand what they are

Now I chalange you to teach me to write a visual basic application in the
next email you write to this list.  Make it write a message to the screen
and do it from the IDE.  See how many steps you have to explain.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie McBride
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:10 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!

Well, Ken, as I see it, programming is divided into 2 major areas:
1) Learning to think/problem-solve in the way the computer does; & then
2) Learning whatever language u need that will fit the sort of
applications you're coding.

It's a tough road to do both at the same time, & it's why I recommend
learning something easier at first, e.g., basic, Python, etc. Once
folks kind of get the concepts of how to use the compiler/interpreter
& instruct the computer to do what they want, then the next logical
progression is something like C. But I think learning C initially is
rather like what my dad did to me when I was 4--threw me into Lake
Michigan in 62 degree water over my head. Not fun. &, no, it did not
teach me to swim any better or any earlier, believe me.

In retrospect, I rather like the way I approached things--I taught
myself Basic, which I used (& rather effectively, I might add) to sort
patient visits by date for tax purposes when I was in practice because
my crazy billing program didn't. Then I went on to learn C. It worked
well. That is not to say it will work well for others. Then I got some
formal programming training, & I believe what I'd taught myself
previously stood me in very good stead for learning that.

Each person has to go his/her own way, I guess, but I think a gentler
intro than C is more beneficial for those who are self-taught. Just my
$.02--& what do I know? You're the 1 making a living at it, not mwa.

On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Actually I know someone who does professional programming who has his
> in electronics and only took two coding classes which he could have taught
> when he took hem.  College is not all it's cracked up to be but that is
> another argument.
> I understand that Jess is using vs but that don't mean he or she has to.
> fact I ended up having to learn the Microsoft build system because the VS
> ide wouldn't do the cross compile system I wanted it to  so I had to get
> of VS and create the build xml file by hand which you can do.  Heck for
> matter you can code in VB by hand and actually use a compiler which gets
> out of the graphical IDE and lets you learn to code.  In fact you can find
> few examples of this up on the fruit basket page.
> Ken
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:29 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
> Hi Ken: Jes said he is working in the VS IDE already. I don't know if it
> for school, for work or just for fun. OK, let me set my point clear... A
> person needs to get a good University Education in Computer Programming or
> related field to work in that arena. You can not become a Professional
> Programmer by playing with Visual Studio. You can, however, get help on
> with Visual Studio and it is fine, if you have the patients, for learning
> do some programming as a hobbyist. The things we never talk about to nubes
> is the process of learning to turn a step by step analysis of solving
> business, engineering or technical problems into computer code. That is
> where a University Education comes in.. Once that skill is mastered then
> becomes a matter of learning a Programming Language and coding up a
> solution. Using a IDE is just a time saving step after you have done the
> former learning processes. When I see someone asking to learn to become a
> Computer Programmer by reading books and learning on their own I assume
> are trying to do it as a hobby. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind
> would seriously consider trying to learn to become a Professional Computer
> Programmer and compete in the Job Market without a formal education - it
> just seems like so much nonsense. There might be one or two out there who
> did it that way but 99+ percent have taken University Courses if they work
> in the field. Jes said he was working on a project in VS IDE, having
> problems and the process I outlined just touched bases with the things he
> needed to ensure he did, and did correctly, to get his project up and
> running. The blurb about learning Programming ie... IPO, was just to start
> the brain working in thinking about inputs, outputs and Processing as 3
> things that need to be done, sigh, and even that is diferent in today's
> world.
> Rick USA.
> Message -----
> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:47 PM
> Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>> I am sorry Rick but this is what is wrong with most coders coming out of
>> college now days.  They code by the drop button and create if statement
>> method.  Have you actually looked at Job listings.  A person that learns
>> to
>> code the way you just laid out whether they be sited or blind will be the
>> bottom of the barrel.  Some jobs asks for Visual studio but a monkey can
>> make a form and add an if statement to it to make a button do something.
>> If
>> a person wants to be a coder they need to be make sure they are not
>> getting
>> themselves where they can be put out by some new AI programming language
>> that can make the forms straight from  a design chart created by a
>> secretary.  That type of coding can be done by anyone.
>> Colleges switched to GUI environments to make money because any sited
>> person
>> can create a half baked program with them.  They did the same thing to
>> electronics field with places like ITT and other tech schools that taught
>> half baked electronics.  Now I am not saying a good electronics person or
>> a
>> good coder can't come from the easy road what I am saying is it is much
>> more
>> unlikely that one will.
>> If on the other hand you start with a compiled language or an assembled
>> language you will understand what is going on.  You shouldn't even worry
>> about the GUI till you know how programs are logically put together and
>> why.
>> Otherwise we are going to need that 48 core computer and 12 TB of ram
>> to run the next text editor because we as coders are getting slipperier
>> and
>> messier because we don't understand what is going on under the engine.
>> Anyway I have ranted enough but a person that is just getting started
>> would
>> be better to start in straight C and learn what memory was, how to deal
>> with
>> pointers, and understand what a register is because in the long run if
>> you're really going to be a coder not a monkey dialog maker you will need
>> that information and if you think you have become a coder by creating
>> monkey dialogs you will find yourself very screwed when you take that job
>> you are not even close to ready for.
>> Ken
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:18 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>> First, Programming in today's world is a world apart from where we use to
>> be. It is so much simpler in some ways and light years more complex in
>> other
>> ways. Programming in the Visual Studio IDE takes a large learning curve.
>> You
>> need to install and configure that puppy. Fail to do this and you  will
>> hearing more junk and losing focus more than an intrevert at a rock
>> concert.
>> That is a pain itself. Then, if you run JAWS you need to configure JAWS,
>> again better get it right. Then after you get all that done you can open
>> the
>> IDE and look at a bunch of buttons and dialogs that have seemingly
>> to do with creating a computer program using computer statements. And,
>> Forbid, You try and download and install Sql Server Express, well, you
>> will
>> be headed for gray hair if you are one of the lucky few who get that far.
>> You absolutely  need to configure the IDE for accessibility, pick the
>> ssimpelest language,, to start with and create your first Hello
>> World
>> Form from the Form1 file. That is after you create a new project of the
>> Windows Forms type. Then you can drop a couple of buttons, a textbox or 2
>> on
>> the Form1 designer, set their properties and code the related VB Code for
>> the Button Click Events and mess with the Text Properties of the
>> TextBoxes.
>> If you get that far you will be on your way to learning to Program in
>> Visual
>> Studio. I would start with the Express module since it does not
>> have
>> all the other languages and is just a little cleaner to start with. Once
>> you
>> get the nack of making a form do things like Display Output to a user,
>> Read
>> Inputs from a user and do some Processing on the input, you have the
>> understanding of what computer programming is really about IPO, Input /
>> Process / Output. If you jump into C++, Visual Studio IDE and a DB you
>> jumping out of an airplane and flapping as hard as you can but you can
>> pretty much guess the final result. But, Give Up? Did We Give Up when the
>> Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor? No, when the going gets tough - the tough
>> questions on list and follow up with more work!
>> Rick USA
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jes" <theeternalkid@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:59 PM
>> Subject: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>> Hi all,
>> All I get when using visual studio are nothing but errors! I just want to
>> be
>> able to write a program and have it work! Just once! But no. All I get
>> errors! So what's the use in even trying? Encouragement needed badly!
>> Thanks.
>> Jes
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Jackie McBride
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