RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 00:42:00 -0400
You don't have to know any of that to do what I just put in that email again
write a simple tutorial to do hello world in vb I want it as easy as the one
I just did in c.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 12:21 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
Imo, (and that's a very big imo), programming involves much more than
just the syntax or even the logic behind it. If a programmer can walk
up and down the abstraction layers; by this I mean from the kernel, to
the operating system's basic modules/services/system calls, to the
application level frameworks/DLL's, and finally up to whatever
specific toolkit you may be using, then you can really understand
what's going on.
That's the toughest part of programming; the most basic of C/C++
programs still hide so much from the writer. Walking through what
occurs when a user executes a simple hello world program (virtual
memory, file i/o, lazy-loading, processes/threads, etc etc etc...)
takes years of study. However, even the most casual programmer needs
to have a basic understanding of these topics to be effective.
On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> See that's why I keep you around. I am going to have to talk to that
Ninja
> robot I have in your room. Actually wait that was just a test yeah that's
> it I was testing people to see if I got it right.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tyler
> Littlefield
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:43 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>
> It won't compile actually, you missed a comma.
> int main(int argc, char** argv)
> :)
>
> Thanks,
> Tyler Littlefield
> http://tds-solutions.net
> Twitter: sorressean
>
> On Jun 30, 2010, at 9:40 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>
>> Um how hard is this
>>
>> //myfile.c
>> #include <stdlib.h>
>> #include <stdio.h>
>> Int main (int argc char *arv)
>> {
>> Printf ("hello world");
>> Return (0);
>> }
>>
>> Gcc myfile.c -o myfile
>>
>> There I just wrote a program that will compile in this email. I didn't
> need
>> an ide I didn't need to drop buttons what I could focus on was the code.
>> The problem is you are confusing learning to code with learning to
program
>> applications. Sure I don't want to start my first full blown application
>> writing it at the command line creating the graphical widgets etc. I do
> how
>> ever want to start with a simple step by step method. I could write a
>> simple program to take input in only a couple more lines of code and see
> the
>> results instantly. If I get errors the errors would pop up instantly you
>> wouldn't have to hunt for the window they are in. In c variables must be
> at
>> the top of every code segment or {} section. In languages like VB and
c++
>> and C# you can throw in variable declarations any where. Which is easier
> to
>> teach someone put your variables here or hey throw them any where and
then
>> try and hunt down where the error is?
>>
>> I could go on but I have had this argument with professors and at least
>> held my own if not won from time to time. Its great if all you want to
do
>> is make a sited person happy that they made a simple application but if
> you
>> really trying to teach them to code and to continue to learn to code then
>> you shouldn't lose them in the manusia before they understand what they
> are
>> doing.
>>
>> Now I chalange you to teach me to write a visual basic application in the
>> next email you write to this list. Make it write a message to the screen
>> and do it from the IDE. See how many steps you have to explain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ken
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie
McBride
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:10 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>
>> Well, Ken, as I see it, programming is divided into 2 major areas:
>> 1) Learning to think/problem-solve in the way the computer does; & then
>> 2) Learning whatever language u need that will fit the sort of
>> applications you're coding.
>>
>> It's a tough road to do both at the same time, & it's why I recommend
>> learning something easier at first, e.g., basic, Python, etc. Once
>> folks kind of get the concepts of how to use the compiler/interpreter
>> & instruct the computer to do what they want, then the next logical
>> progression is something like C. But I think learning C initially is
>> rather like what my dad did to me when I was 4--threw me into Lake
>> Michigan in 62 degree water over my head. Not fun. &, no, it did not
>> teach me to swim any better or any earlier, believe me.
>>
>> In retrospect, I rather like the way I approached things--I taught
>> myself Basic, which I used (& rather effectively, I might add) to sort
>> patient visits by date for tax purposes when I was in practice because
>> my crazy billing program didn't. Then I went on to learn C. It worked
>> well. That is not to say it will work well for others. Then I got some
>> formal programming training, & I believe what I'd taught myself
>> previously stood me in very good stead for learning that.
>>
>> Each person has to go his/her own way, I guess, but I think a gentler
>> intro than C is more beneficial for those who are self-taught. Just my
>> $.02--& what do I know? You're the 1 making a living at it, not mwa.
>>
>> On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Actually I know someone who does professional programming who has his
>> degree
>>> in electronics and only took two coding classes which he could have
> taught
>>> when he took hem. College is not all it's cracked up to be but that is
>>> another argument.
>>>
>>> I understand that Jess is using vs but that don't mean he or she has to.
>> In
>>> fact I ended up having to learn the Microsoft build system because the
VS
>>> ide wouldn't do the cross compile system I wanted it to so I had to get
>> out
>>> of VS and create the build xml file by hand which you can do. Heck for
>> that
>>> matter you can code in VB by hand and actually use a compiler which gets
>> you
>>> out of the graphical IDE and lets you learn to code. In fact you can
> find
>> a
>>> few examples of this up on the fruit basket page.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:29 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>
>>> Hi Ken: Jes said he is working in the VS IDE already. I don't know if it
>> is
>>> for school, for work or just for fun. OK, let me set my point clear... A
>>> person needs to get a good University Education in Computer Programming
> or
>> a
>>>
>>> related field to work in that arena. You can not become a Professional
>>> Programmer by playing with Visual Studio. You can, however, get help on
>> list
>>>
>>> with Visual Studio and it is fine, if you have the patients, for
learning
>> to
>>>
>>> do some programming as a hobbyist. The things we never talk about to
> nubes
>>> is the process of learning to turn a step by step analysis of solving
>>> business, engineering or technical problems into computer code. That is
>>> where a University Education comes in.. Once that skill is mastered then
>> it
>>> becomes a matter of learning a Programming Language and coding up a
>>> solution. Using a IDE is just a time saving step after you have done the
>>> former learning processes. When I see someone asking to learn to become
a
>>> Computer Programmer by reading books and learning on their own I assume
>> they
>>>
>>> are trying to do it as a hobby. I can't imagine anyone in their right
> mind
>>> would seriously consider trying to learn to become a Professional
> Computer
>>> Programmer and compete in the Job Market without a formal education - it
>>> just seems like so much nonsense. There might be one or two out there
who
>>> did it that way but 99+ percent have taken University Courses if they
> work
>>> in the field. Jes said he was working on a project in VS IDE, having
>>> problems and the process I outlined just touched bases with the things
he
>>> needed to ensure he did, and did correctly, to get his project up and
>>> running. The blurb about learning Programming ie... IPO, was just to
> start
>>> the brain working in thinking about inputs, outputs and Processing as 3
>>> things that need to be done, sigh, and even that is diferent in today's
>> OOP
>>> world.
>>> Rick USA.
>>> Message -----
>>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:47 PM
>>> Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am sorry Rick but this is what is wrong with most coders coming out
of
>>>> college now days. They code by the drop button and create if statement
>>>> method. Have you actually looked at Job listings. A person that
learns
>>>> to
>>>> code the way you just laid out whether they be sited or blind will be
> the
>>>> bottom of the barrel. Some jobs asks for Visual studio but a monkey
can
>>>> make a form and add an if statement to it to make a button do
something.
>>>> If
>>>> a person wants to be a coder they need to be make sure they are not
>>>> getting
>>>> themselves where they can be put out by some new AI programming
language
>>>> that can make the forms straight from a design chart created by a
>>>> secretary. That type of coding can be done by anyone.
>>>>
>>>> Colleges switched to GUI environments to make money because any sited
>>>> person
>>>> can create a half baked program with them. They did the same thing to
>> the
>>>> electronics field with places like ITT and other tech schools that
> taught
>>>> half baked electronics. Now I am not saying a good electronics person
> or
>>>> a
>>>> good coder can't come from the easy road what I am saying is it is much
>>>> more
>>>> unlikely that one will.
>>>>
>>>> If on the other hand you start with a compiled language or an assembled
>>>> language you will understand what is going on. You shouldn't even
worry
>>>> about the GUI till you know how programs are logically put together and
>>>> why.
>>>> Otherwise we are going to need that 48 core computer and 12 TB of ram
>> just
>>>> to run the next text editor because we as coders are getting slipperier
>>>> and
>>>> messier because we don't understand what is going on under the engine.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway I have ranted enough but a person that is just getting started
>>>> would
>>>> be better to start in straight C and learn what memory was, how to deal
>>>> with
>>>> pointers, and understand what a register is because in the long run if
>>>> you're really going to be a coder not a monkey dialog maker you will
> need
>>>> that information and if you think you have become a coder by creating
>> some
>>>> monkey dialogs you will find yourself very screwed when you take that
> job
>>>> you are not even close to ready for.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:18 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>
>>>> First, Programming in today's world is a world apart from where we use
> to
>>>> be. It is so much simpler in some ways and light years more complex in
>>>> other
>>>>
>>>> ways. Programming in the Visual Studio IDE takes a large learning
curve.
>>>> You
>>>>
>>>> need to install and configure that puppy. Fail to do this and you will
>> be
>>>> hearing more junk and losing focus more than an intrevert at a rock
>>>> concert.
>>>>
>>>> That is a pain itself. Then, if you run JAWS you need to configure
JAWS,
>>>> again better get it right. Then after you get all that done you can
open
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> IDE and look at a bunch of buttons and dialogs that have seemingly
>> nothing
>>>> to do with creating a computer program using computer statements. And,
>> God
>>>> Forbid, You try and download and install Sql Server Express, well, you
>>>> will
>>>> be headed for gray hair if you are one of the lucky few who get that
> far.
>>>> You absolutely need to configure the IDE for accessibility, pick the
>>>> ssimpelest language, vb.net, to start with and create your first Hello
>>>> World
>>>>
>>>> Form from the Form1 file. That is after you create a new project of the
>>>> Windows Forms type. Then you can drop a couple of buttons, a textbox or
> 2
>>>> on
>>>>
>>>> the Form1 designer, set their properties and code the related VB Code
> for
>>>> the Button Click Events and mess with the Text Properties of the
>>>> TextBoxes.
>>>> If you get that far you will be on your way to learning to Program in
>>>> Visual
>>>>
>>>> Studio. I would start with the Vb.net Express module since it does not
>>>> have
>>>> all the other languages and is just a little cleaner to start with.
Once
>>>> you
>>>>
>>>> get the nack of making a form do things like Display Output to a user,
>>>> Read
>>>> Inputs from a user and do some Processing on the input, you have the
>> basic
>>>> understanding of what computer programming is really about IPO, Input /
>>>> Process / Output. If you jump into C++, Visual Studio IDE and a DB you
>> are
>>>> jumping out of an airplane and flapping as hard as you can but you can
>>>> pretty much guess the final result. But, Give Up? Did We Give Up when
> the
>>>> Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor? No, when the going gets tough - the tough
>> ask
>>>> questions on list and follow up with more work!
>>>> Rick USA
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jes" <theeternalkid@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:59 PM
>>>> Subject: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> All I get when using visual studio are nothing but errors! I just want
> to
>>>> be
>>>>
>>>> able to write a program and have it work! Just once! But no. All I get
>> are
>>>> errors! So what's the use in even trying? Encouragement needed badly!
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> Jes
>>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Change the world--1 deed at a time
>> Jackie McBride
>> Scripting Classes: http://jawsscripting.lonsdalemedia.org
>> homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
>> For technophobes: www.technophoeb.com
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