Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO

  • From: Andreas Stefik <stefika@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:23:38 -0500

Jared, yes, you can. It's all open source, so you can see what we did.
It's not a perfect solution, as I tried to explain, but it does work
in a cross-platform way, for very complex programs.

Stefik

On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Jared Wright <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> #2 was my answer to #1, but then I read #4. *grin* I don't think we can wish
> away Swing, too many mainstream developers just like using it. The JNI is a
> messy way to wrap the Swing controls, but given that our project is going to
> have to wrap Swing controls into accessible versions of them (which will
> probably  vary from OS to OS), I had figured operating system independence
> was hoping for a bit much.  Like I said though, I hit #4 and will check out
> this approach. I'm guessing I could look at the Sodbeans source for an
> example?
> On 10/12/2010 02:55 PM, Andreas Stefik wrote:
>>
>> Here's my two cents:
>>
>> 1. JNI is a useful technology to be sure, but creating these kinds of
>> swing wrappers are difficult to write and operating system dependent.
>>
>> 2. SWT is a neat technology as well, although a lot of the Java folks
>> I work with shy away from it because it's proprietary and doesn't work
>> everywhere. Also, the GUI editors sighted users often use are
>> massively superior for swing, when compared to SWT, so far as I
>> understand it.
>>
>> 3. A big partnership agreement between IBM and Oracle was recently
>> announced on the NetBeans dream team list (membership is not public),
>> and it sounds like everything is going to be moving to OpenJDK. This
>> could be huge for this community, in my opinion.
>>
>> 4. Another alternative to using JNI is to create listener
>> architectures that can plug into Java programs (including swing), and
>> output that to a text-to-speech engine. This solution isn't perfect
>> either, but it does allow for a cross-platform solution to outputting
>> information to a screen reader. This is what we do on the Sodbeans
>> project, for the entire NetBeans platform (over 2 million lines of
>> code), and it works just fine in most cases, without the Java access
>> bridge.
>>
>> Anyway, I don't think there is a perfect, works in every case,
>> solution to this problem (yet!), but I'm enjoying this discussion, as
>> it gives lots of ideas on how to approach these problems as everyone
>> proceeds,
>>
>> Stefik
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Chris Hofstader<cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What part of "Director of Access Technology" implies  "source  for
>>> licensing questions?
>>>
>>> All licensing queries are generic at FSF and such questions  should be
>>> sent to someone at FSF who knows better about such things than I do. I do
>>> not have the time to be a courier for your questions regarding generic FSF
>>> policy as I am completely swamped with actual accessibility issues. Just
>>> because licensing issues also effect accessibility projects does not make
>>> them any less generic and, therefore, definitely not in my department.
>>>
>>> FruitBasket is an accessibility issue and after nudging people on the
>>> subject of porting the FB programs to Gnome, I finally had no takers so put
>>> out the call for volunteers yesterday. This sort of thing is my job and I'm
>>> happy to add such things to my task list but, because of really enormous
>>> problems (Gnome 3 for instance), I can't always get to different tasks too
>>> quickly.
>>>
>>> If I remember correctly, you were a policy or politics major at
>>> Princeton? Why don't you volunteer to read FSF policy statements regarding
>>> licenses and how you see them effecting accessibility and, if I can get it
>>> approved by the higher ups in FSF, we can post it as a white paper. I'm
>>> really not suited to such things and, even if I was, I haven't the time to
>>> spend away from actual software development projects going on all over the
>>> world.
>>>
>>> If a generic question is asked framed in accessibility language, it
>>> doesn't become more apropos to accessibility - it remains generic and should
>>> be sent to someone at FSF expert in such matters. I am not this person and
>>> do not want to become this person and, therefore, will not become this
>>> person.
>>>
>>> cdh
>>>
>>> "
>>> On Oct 12, 2010, at 7:40 AM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think support could include various things such as publicity by GNU,
>>>> links on the gnu.org site, attempts by GNU staff to recruit other 
>>>> developers
>>>> to the project, hardware donations, financial grants, etc.. As background,
>>>> soon after I joined the GNU accessibility hackers list that Chris started,
>>>> someone was trying to organize developers to work on voice dictation
>>>> software that made use of proprietary components.  RMS made it clear that
>>>> the list could not be used for such discussion because such a project would
>>>> violate FSF principles.  Clearly, that project would not receive 
>>>> endorsement
>>>> or other support from GNU, even just space on one of its email discussion
>>>> lists.
>>>>
>>>> So, I think it is a fair and important question to clarify whether
>>>> software components that have licenses that FSF says are GPL-incompatible
>>>> may be used in projects that receive support from resources of GNU.  I 
>>>> would
>>>> think that the GNU Director of Accessibility is the appropriate person to
>>>> ask such a question, and that if he does not know the answer off hand, he
>>>> can obtain it and relay that information.
>>>>
>>>> Jamal
>>>>
>>>> On 10/11/2010 5:06 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please define support
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Sina
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:47 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Cc: Chris Hofstader
>>>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>>>>
>>>>> A few weeks ago, I looked on the FSF site for some kind of opinion on
>>>>> the Oracle suit against Google over Android/Java, and was
>>>>> surprised not to find one.  FSF tends to have opinions on big issues in
>>>>> the field related to software copyrights and patents.  If
>>>>> FSF does have an opinion on this, would you point us to a link?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, did you ever get an authoritative answer on whether GNU will
>>>>> support accessibility-related development projects that use
>>>>> library components that are licensed under the Eclipse Public License?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jamal
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/11/2010 9:58 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oracle may not "own" mysql and definitely does not own the version
>>>>>> forked from the code base into a separate line of development
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> entirely outside of Oracle.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oracle is claiming that they "own" the mysql copyright. If *anyone* in
>>>>>> the wild contributed as little as a single line of code to
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> the project, even if they did so anonymously, they also own part of
>>>>> that copyright. Also, if anyone working at Sun had not signed an
>>>>> assignment of copyright agreement, they too own part of the copyrighted
>>>>> source code. Thus, although they claim they will change the
>>>>> license, they may not e ale to do so in a manner that would hold up in
>>>>> a courtroom.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oracle can add proprietary and very pretty UI elements that call into
>>>>>> mysql to their heart's content. These will, knowing Oracle's
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> track record, not be FLOSS and, also following Oracle's history, will,
>>>>> at best, probably be only partially accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only accessibility engineers remaining at Oracle are Peter and the
>>>>>> accessibility people working on OpenOffice, another FLOSS
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> project that Oracle is trying to make proprietary. Regarding the office
>>>>> suite, Oracle can make a proprietary fork and stop
>>>>> contributing to the FLOSS version. To this end a group of people have
>>>>> banded together to form the Document Foundation and have
>>>>> rebranded OpenOffice.org as LibreOffice. We at FSF/GNU see LibreOffice
>>>>> accessibility as essential to the future of an accessible
>>>>> planet and will be involved at some level in the new fork.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cdh
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:14 AM, Kerneels Roos wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I read some blogs on the recent Oracle World and Java One conference
>>>>>>> held by Oracle. It seems they are, as we expected, a much
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> more business savvy company than Sun was. The former Java One
>>>>> confernces were very much developer minded, while the recent one
>>>>> presented by Oracle gave the indication that they are far more business
>>>>> minded and are working strategically towards set goals.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Very interesting development is their plans for MySQL which they
>>>>>>> apparently also own now, in particular their plans to develop
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> very nice user interfaces for managing MySQL databases so that there
>>>>> will be greater adoption of it in the Windows + Visual Studio
>>>>> world. Their ideal would be to have MySQL integrate directly with
>>>>> Visual Studio, but I'm digressing...
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since Oracle wants to make profit mostly (or only) and maintain a
>>>>>>> nice public profile, it would be up to the stake holders in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Java Accessibility to convince them that it is indeed in their best
>>>>> interest to give it a high priority. If by reasoning about it we
>>>>> can come to the conclusion that there is no real advantage for them in
>>>>> investing in furthering Java Accessibility then another route
>>>>> needs to be perseued. Such another route might be an open source
>>>>> development of the JAB, a third party development of the JAB.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We want access to be free, but if for a small price you could get an
>>>>>>> up to date JAB that makes Java extremely accessible then
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> that is better than the alternative of no, or out dated access.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe that if one can convince a company nicely that
>>>>>>> accessibility is important then they will do a good job at it, as aposed
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> to it being a legally enforced thing, or a pressured thing. I agree
>>>>> with another person on this list, think it was Tylor, that
>>>>> asking people nicely to change their web sites RE accessible captchas
>>>>> for example is far better than screaming at them over email.
>>>>> All the more so if you can give them food for thought in terms of
>>>>> numbers.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If it's a better idea to have foundations for the blind interacting
>>>>>>> with Oracle about this then we as the community need to first
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> approach our local and international foundations. There is so much that
>>>>> can be done, like pettitions, fund raising, awareness,
>>>>> pressure from the general public, pressure from M$, pressure from their
>>>>> clients that are far removed from accessibility issues but
>>>>> that do have a morral concions.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Java is a great language to program in if you are blind due to it's
>>>>>>> verbose nature and well thought out standard libraries.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle's plans (to my best judgement) for Java is long but over. They
>>>>> are also planning more JDK releases by spreading future
>>>>> features over the various releases. On top of that, there are millions
>>>>> of lines of legacy Java that will have to be maintained for
>>>>> many years to come, so a career as a Java Programmer will remain a good
>>>>> choice for blind programmers regardless, but it would be so
>>>>> much better if it is certain that Oracle will strive to improve Java
>>>>> accessibility onwards.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what would be the next step?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Kerneels
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/11/2010 3:11 AM, Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Listers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing
>>>>>>>> government contracts in the United States would have some
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> affect on all this. I have asked people about swing and I am told it
>>>>> isn't used very much because there is newer technology out
>>>>> there. I am not an experienced Java programmer so maybe the rest of you
>>>>> will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at my
>>>>> building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of
>>>>> myself, it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>>>>>>> IMHO
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> or hound,or pummel,  or...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> elf
>>>>>>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>>>>>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>>>>>>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>>>>>>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>>>>>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>>>>>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>>>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>>>>>>> IMHO
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the
>>>>>>>>> voice of reason has made itself known.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into
>>>>>>>>> actually not abandoning it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>>>> Sina
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken
>>>>>>>>> Perry
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>>>>>>>> IMHO
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.
>>>>>>>>> It's time to get people to get active and start emailing and
>>>>>>>>> calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what
>>>>>>>>> accessibility was there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm
>>>>>>>>> Dragon
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>>>>>>>> IMHO
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux
>>>>>>>>> accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun.
>>>>>>>>> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software
>>>>>>>>> decisions, to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
>>>>>>>>> far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get
>>>>>>>>> rid of Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a
>>>>>>>>> fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage
>>>>>>>>> to win their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who
>>>>>>>>> they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the
>>>>>>>>> open source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still
>>>>>>>>> alive and well after all.
>>>>>>>>> Storm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Registered Linux user number 508465:
>>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/
>>>>>>>>> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.stormdragon.us/
>>>>>>>>> Get yourself a Frostbox:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> oh know,
>>>>>>>>> i wish its just a rumor.
>>>>>>>>> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>> prateek agarwal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui<empower@xxxxxxxxx>      wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to
>>>>>>>>>> discontinue support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative
>>>>>>>>>> is planned).  I would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
>>>>>>>>>> anyone has information regarding this topic, please share.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jamal
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Kerneels Roos
>>>>>>> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>>>>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>>>>>>>   The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>>>>>>>    -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>>>
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