[lit-ideas] Re: comments the DEMs must defend
- From: "Simon Ward" <sedward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:47:44 -0000
Simon: Let me ask you again: do you believe that Bush's concern for the
Iraqi people under Saddam played a substantive part in the decision to
invade?
Eric: No, not particularly. However, this does not condemn Bush or the US
because it doesn't single him (or us) out for unusual behavior. For a
nation to respond as we did, there has to be a perceived threat. Even a
significant advantage would not be a good motive for such an invasion;
although significant advantage is a motive for diplomatic stalling and
interference, it's not enough of a motive for invasion.
Thanks for that, but it does open up a sizeable flaw in the common mantra.
Namely that every time people talk of whether the Iraqi people are better off
now Saddam has gone (and the answer is indeed debatable given the violence), it
carries with it the implicit assumption that the US invasion was carried out
with these people in mind. Except it wasn't.
Carrying it further, however, I'd say that this is a flaw that isn't confined
to the US. Sadly, there have been many instances where people have been dying
whether as a result of dictatorial government or civil war and where the
overriding reaction from those countries that could make a diference has been
apathy. And all because, we would assume, it's not in the national interest.
Simon: Or perhaps more pertinent: do you believe that Bush, even before
9/11, had it in mind to invade Iraq?
Eric: Oh sure. But not just Bush, Gore too, plus Bush's team and Gore's team.
Clinton DID sign a resolution for regime change in Iraq, and so that
issue had to be on everybody's mind. We couldn't just maintain the
no-fly zone forever, so whoever was running for office had to consider
the issue, probably along these lines:
1. Can I invade Iraq and take out Saddam? How could I get the public to
back me on this? Is it worth the risk?
2. Can I avoid invading Iraq and taking out Saddam? Can I live with the
outcome of inaction? The public will always back inaction, but will my
inaction damage my legacy?
3. Can I, in the interest of my party and my legacy, simply pass this
growing problem on to my successor?
I take your point, but I don't believe Bush's decision making ran along these
lines. I'd say that he wanted to invade no matter what. We've heard a few times
the assumption that when Bush came to power he didn't give a jot for foreign
policy, but I don't buy that. I remember thinking it odd that he opted out of
agreements that would have enabled international courts to try US soldiers. If
his intention was to leave the world well alone, why bother. Of course, that's
not proof, just an indication.
[Conflating posts...]
Simon: As Judy has said, Europeans are well aware of the propensity for
Governments to lie. How about you?
Eric: Hey, I was the first kid on my block to own a copy of _Manufacturing
Consent_. Don't talk to me about alienation and personal moral judgments
trumping imposed civic virtue: I invented them. I had the entire text of
_Man without a Country_ tattooed in nanofont on my scalp, and I was
rooting for Philip Nolan. My teenage goal was to outdo Nietzsche in
isolation and being misunderstood, surpass Cioran in pessimism, and die
by nuclear war believing in nothing. I've patented every form of
distrust, second-guessing, civil disobedience, independent thought, and
radicalism this side of sociopathy. I was there. I was the man. I
suffered (along with Ferlinghetti) somewhat.
Well that's alright then. I thought the Eric we all read Lit-Ideas for (clearly
I'm exaggerating hear) I thought that Eric had suddenly gone. But no! And lo!
And stuff like that - he's here after all and all it took to get him back was a
sly dig at his weak spot.
Yet the challenge to Europe stands. You want to get rid of the American
hegemon before the Chinese hegemon arrives and starts the footbinding?
Get a decent army and take care of the problems in your back yard.
Cultivate your own satan instead of renting out the US satan as fall
guy. Be your own man behind the curtain. Don't use the resentment switch
to keep the European gemutlichkeit flowing until it's Allah-time for y'all.
When I said it was a relief that this Eric had returned, I hadn't really
anticipated the heat being blasted in my direction. Still, I suppose he's
right. If you'll excuse, I'll head off and sort Europe out...
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