[lit-ideas] Re: Right to Life, Right to Die

From: Judy Evans <judithevans001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:07:24 +0000
Friday, March 25, 2005, 5:30:45 PM, Carol Kirschenbaum wrote:

>> Has anyone read, as I have, where on occasion a person is denied a
>> transplant because she can't pay?

CK> ck: Veronica, this is quite common in the US. Without health insurance, a
CK> transplant is pretty much out of the question, as are relatively routine
CK> surgical procedures.

Right. That's one of the obscenities of your system. I regularly buy a
magazine produced for homeless people and sold by them -- a good
scheme -- these people have the same basic health care rights as I do.
 One was beaten up badly, taken to A and E. The doctor there thought
 he needed additional complex ops (but not immediately), luckily that
 doctor noted it and remembered it and ensured he got the treatment
 *fast*, he's OK.  Another one, whom I know fairly well by now (she's
 my local seller) has, of course, the primary care doctors of her
 choice just round the corner from mine; a very good practice, I'm
 told.  They give her a lot of care.

 I add that Wales has a waiting list problem of massive proportions
 but has been beaten up (the National Assembly has, the Health
 Minister has) by Tony Blair, and made to promise to reach the English
 target (which England will reach) and has promised us to spend 30
 times as much as he originally said he would on doing that.  But I
 intend complaining about it till that happens -- now is a good time,
 I spoke to a Labour canvasser to such effect, the MP wrote me a
 personal letter giving me a 'phone number so I can say more.



CK>   Health care is
>> already rationed to some degree to those who have good insurance.

CK> ck: That's an understatement.

Yes and even more worrying, we have a welfare state to defend and the
parties know they have to defend it, we have a massive national press
whose tabloids, even the nasty right-wing ones, will zap into
effective action...


>>How long> is society responsible for maintaining persons on life support at
>>incredible expense, while others are denied relatively cheap medical care?

CK> ck: This is one reason that the Schiavo case was seized upon by 
CK> conservatives. Terri Schiavo's medical care was not, until recently,
CK> dependent on any state or federal health program.


right

of course the answer to "How long..." is that the others should not be
denied *free at point of entry* medical care.


CK> (Shhh--don't tell Bush,
CK> who wants to put a low cap on medical malpractice cases...)

That should be fought hard as should your general tort law "reform"
scam: you need higher damages than we do, you have to pay for the
care...

CCK> People with disabilities measure low on that economic scale, which is why
CK> the disability community figures they'll be among the first to have their
CK> access to medical care scaled back, as usual.

True here also, unfortunately

CK> But as you say, society believes it should have a say in all this 
CK> technology. However, I doubt that a feeding tube is a very costly piece of
CK> technology.

It isn't, it's the "institutional maintenance" that's costly.

CK> A couple of points in the Schiavo case:
CK> Terri has been swallowing her own saliva, according to medical reports. (She
CK> doesn't drool.) Swallowing reflex can be increased, with training. Terri
CK> didn't have such training, and the courts refused it. Please note: The
CK> courts are not medical experts, nor are lawyers trained in interpreting
CK> medical information. The courts that have ruled in favor of Michael Shiavo
CK> have looked specifically--and almost solely--at the rights and obligations
CK> of a legal guardian.

Not so.  See


http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf

pp 6-7

re swallowing, see

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder0300.pdf

re physical condition see

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/2dcaorder01-01.txt

re the Schindler's contentions see (District Court of Appeal of
Florida, part affirmation of Greer, part reversal)

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/2dcaorder07-01.txt

I quote

> However, at this time, the Schindlers have not seriously contested the fact
>that Mrs. Schiavo's brain has suffered major, permanent damage.   In the
>initial  adversary proceeding, a board-certified neurologist who had
>reviewed a CAT scan of   Mrs. Schiavo's brain and an EEG
>testified that most, if not all, of Mrs. Schiavo's   cerebral
>cortex--the portion of her brain that allows for human cognition and
> memory--is either totally destroyed or damaged beyond repair.
>  Her condition is          legally a "terminal condition." <section>
> 765.101(17), Fla. Stat. (2000).  Although  it is conceivable that
> extraordinary treatment might improve some of the motor
>         functions of her brain stem or cerebellum,
> the Schindlers have presented no medical evidence suggesting that
> any new treatment could restore to Mrs. Schiavo a level of
>   function within the cerebral cortex that would allow her to understand her
>  perceptions of sight and sound or to communicate or respond cognitively to 
> those
>  perceptions.
        

CK> You may not know that people have become fully conscious years after being
CK> in PVS and minimally-conscious states.

That's been widely publicised here.  Here, most doctors prefer to keep
PVS patients alive.


CK> And for 15 years, Terri Schiavo has been locked in solitary confinement,
CK> with infrequent, monitored visits from her parents.


They were denied access? I knew her husband visited them far more
frequently than they did, but is it alleged that that's because they
were prevented from visiting her? Why were these visits monitored?

CK> No outdoors, nobody
CK> talking next to her or around her. Radio tuned to the same station for
CK> years...It's enough to make someone feel brain dead.

well yes -- but I am glad my mother had a private room in the nursing
home (I would not chosen a shared room), she was far
less happy in the hospital ward.  There is I add a genuine problem
here: the old hospital wards here often gave better treatment than new
ones, either public or private, with smaller rooms.

CK> But I'm curious: Would you deny feeding tubes in all cases of minimal
CK> consciousness? Would you allow a feeding tube for a certain number of weeks?
CK> Months? Years? Never? You've probably read or heard about people being fully
CK> conscious but "locked-in"--the Poe terror. This can continue for a long
CK> while, for years, if nobody's watching that patient very carefully for signs
CK> of alertness. Stinting on the feeding tube would kill them off. Is that okay
CK> in the rationing hierarchy? Should expensive healthcare be reserved for
CK> people above a certain IQ level--and withheld for, say, people with mental
CK> retardation living in institutions?  Just curious. Very curious.

1.  I am almost certain many people with dementia are "locked-in" (they
"come back" often, but only briefly).

2.  Obviously if this is a matter of rationing by ability to pay
(Prince Rainier can pay, the Vatican can pay..) it's wrong.

3.Should expensive healthcare be reserved for
CK> people above a certain IQ level--and withheld for, say, people with mental
CK> retardation living in institutions?

Clearly not -- is anyone on this list saying it should be?

I wanted to add that if Michael Sciavo beat his wife up and that
caused a collapse whose cause the hospital did not recognise (etc.
etc.) then another surrogate should take over. But, he
offered to stand down as surrogate.





CK> ----- Original Message ----- 
CK> From: "Veronica Caley" <vcaley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
CK> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
CK> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 8:50 AM
CK> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Right to Life, Right to Die


>> Carol:<The
>> possibility that Michael, the guardian, was an abusive husband--who may
>> have
>> caused this injury--is terrifying.>
>>
>> I agree Carol that the situation is very complex.  But whereas you see the
>> complexity in how Ms. Schiavo got into the condition she is in, I see the
>> complexity as a possible abuse of technology.  That would be the feeding
>> tube. If it is inserted in the body with hopes that the person will
>> improve, return to consciousness, or in some way show brain driven
>> responses, then it is a wonderful thing.  If it is used in cases where the
>> person has undergone extensive gastrointestinal surgery, it is also a
>> wonderful thing.  If it is inserted and left in there while the person's
>> brain function is minimal to non-existent, then it's a different story.
>> Also, the society ought to have a say in some of this.  Health care is
>> already rationed to some degree to those who have good insurance.  How
>> long
>> is society responsible for maintaining persons on life support at
>> incredible expense, while others are denied relatively cheap medical care?
>>
>> Re the alleged brutality of Mr. Schiavo re his wife, I heard that several
>> times judges have ordered an investigation into this before they made
>> their
>> decision when the court cases started.  They have found no evidence of
>> this.  Twenty judges have read the results of the allegations besides the
>> one that ordered it.  I wish I could tell you for sure where I heard it.
>> My best guess is on the Lehrer news hour
>> on PBS.
>>
>> By the way, I am a card carrying feminist.  I don't take violence against
>> women lightly.
>>
>> Veronica
>>
>>
>>> [Original Message]
>>> From: Carol Kirschenbaum <carolkir@xxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Date: 3/25/2005 11:21:08 AM
>>> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Right to Life, Right to Die
>>>
>>> Veronica wrote:
>>> > And we know why he needs punishing.  He
>>> > stuck with Terri waiting for her to wake up, recover, speak, whatever.
>>> > Somewhere along the line, when he decided that wasn't going to happen,
>> he>
>>> > found a woman with whom he has been living and with whom he has
>> children.
>>> >  > The parent's view was that he ought to divorce Terry and give up a
>>> > million> dollars obtained in a malpractice settlement.  I have read
>> that
>>> > this is> mostly gone. >
>>>
>>> ck: Veronica, the situation is much, much more complex than you present
>>> here, though this is pretty much all the media has reported. Terri
>> Schiavo
>>> did not receive the medical care or the rehabilitative care during the
>> first
>>> few years after her injury. Indeed, the cause of her heart stopping is
>> only
>>> a guess.There's no medical history of her supposed eating disorder; that
>> was
>>> something the media seized upon over the last two years. When Terri was
>>> admitted to the hospital, she also had broken bones. Nobody has come up
>> with
>>> a reason for this, but Jeb Bush found the hint of domestic violence (more
>>> than a hint, from those who knew Terri and Michael) very disturbing. The
>>> possibility that Michael, the guardian, was an abusive husband--who may
>> have
>>> caused this injury--is terrifying.
>>>
>>> Then there's the mysterious matter of Michael never having mentioned
>> during
>>> the malpractice trial--no, not even once--that Terri would not have
>> wanted
>>> to be kept alive like that. The idea popped into his head only after he
>> had
>>> the money. Now the money's mostly gone, spent on Michael's court costs.
>>> Money earmarked for Terri's benefit went towards fighting to end Terri's
>>> life. Now, why doesn't that sit particularly well?
>>> And that's not the half of it. The whole thing is damned sad and awful.
>>> Marlene's right, though, about the fears of the disability community.
>> Those
>>> fears are not unfounded.
>>> Carol
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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                             mailto:judithevans001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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References:
- [lit-ideas] Re: Right to Life, Right to Die
  - From: Veronica Caley
- [lit-ideas] Re: Right to Life, Right to Die
  - From: Carol Kirschenbaum
[lit-ideas] Re: Right to Life, Right to Die

Other related posts:
