LH>Hitler was not precisely elected. I said "though he came to power by constitutional means he was not voted in by a majority of the German people" (in response to your >They wanted a great leader to save their country >from the people who "betrayed it." LH>Hindenberg was re-elected in 1932, but Hitler received the next l LH>largest number of votes. Hitler got 11.3 million votes LH>to Hindenberg's 18.6 million votes. After Hindinberg died in LH> 1934, Hitler succeeded him. I was thinking of the votes for the NSDAP in the 1930 election, when it became the second largest single party in Germany. But I agree, Hitler came second in the Presidential Election of 1932. The important next step is his appointment as Chancelor in 1933. But -- to return to my major point -- even in the 1933 election, which should I suppose be called "free" despite Nazi campaigning tactics, the NSDAP did not gain a majority of the vote and so had to enter a coalition. Hitler proceeded to abolish all opposition (that's not quite right, but will do). But if we agree that Hitler never obtained a majority of the German vote then (sorry to be repetitive) any explanation of the form "The Germans wanted a strong leader (i.e. Hitler) and hence Nazism came to power" is simply wrong. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:55 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: On the prospect of World Peace Hitler was not precisely elected. Hindenberg was re-elected in 1932, but Hitler received the next largest number of votes. Hitler got 11.3 million votes to Hindenberg's 18.6 million votes. After Hindinberg died in 1934, Hitler succeeded him. After the Reichstadt Fire Hitler was allowed to pass the Enabling act that gave him dictatorial power. Lawrence ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Judith Evans Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:00 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: On the prospect of World Peace Just one more point LH>Germany didn't feel they had lost WWI and they didn't' LH> appreciate a government imposed upon them. They wanted LH> a great leader to save their country from the people who "betrayed it." 1. though Hitler came to power by constitutional means he was not voted in by a majority of the German people (did he even gain a plurality of the vote? it's a while since I looked at this). 2. Reasons for voting for the NSDAP varied; see Heberle and "Who Voted For Nazism" and -- and, the literature on this topic. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:10 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: On the prospect of World Peace Cough, couch, cough, "a beginning?" What are you talking about? Of course there has been a beginning, a process, war after war among competing systems, varieties of systems until in 1990 there remained only two competing major systems; then in 1991 there was only one, Liberal Democracy. It isn't a matter of taking it seriously, that is a simple fact. You can't dispute it. You mentioned China, but China following the lead of Hong Kong is instituting many of the elements of Liberal Democracy. Can they retain some control over the government and still reap the benefits of a free economy? They are trying. They have had to give up one of the basic elements of a Communist system, i.e., a state-run economy; so they don't meet the criteria of Communism any longer. Few consider China the threat they were during the Cold War. I don't understand what you are saying about Brazil. They are a developing liberal democracy. Remember, Liberal Democracies don't war with Liberal Democracies. As to Germany, Democracy was forced upon them after WWI and they resented it. Even so, it might have caught on had it not been for the depression. Germany didn't feel they had lost WWI and they didn't' appreciate a government imposed upon them. They wanted a great leader to save their country from the people who "betrayed it." They had major unresolved issues after WWI that took WWII to resolve. Germany never met the criteria of a liberal democracy until after WWII. No one thinks that they did, by the way. There is no one saying that Weimer Germany means there was one exception to the dictum that Liberal Democracies don't war with Liberal Democracies. [I suppose I shouldn't be quite so absolute. There seem to be people who will say the most absurd and impossible things; so there may be people saying this as well.] In the "Last Man" portion of The End of History and the Last Man, Fukuyama does consider the possibility that there may in the future "End of History" period arise an individual so charismatic and so imbued with unrelenting thymos that he will, merely to avoid the boredom of Nietzsche's "Last Man," engage in some unique action that will start history all over again, but Fukuyama seems not to have continued to pursue that possibility after finishing his book. Lawrence ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy Amago Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 7:39 AM To: lit-ideas Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: On the prospect of World Peace I guess if there's an end of history there has to be a beginning. History is only in the last 15 some years. That explains a lot of things but it also begs the question of how anyone can take this stuff seriously. Of course there are challengers. What about China with it's evolving Confucian Capitalistic Communism? They're predicted to be the superpower by the year 2030. What about Brazil, even though Brazil's liberal democracy is second or third after Iraq for hell on earth (my ranking on my personal Hell on Earth Scale). China is evolving. We don't know how China is going to shake out. Also, I have personally lived through so many predictions that never panned out that predicting the end of history through an ascendency of liberal democracy is down there with leisure suits and hot pants, a political fashion, meaningless. Also, Hitler arose out of the Weimar Republic, a democracy. He rose through the system. There was no coup. He was elected and the country then went fascist. I also said with the exception of Japan, WWII was fought in and among liberal democracies. Germany's being a liberal democracy didn't stop it from becoming fascist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 21/08/2006 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 21/08/2006