[lit-ideas] Re: Israel's Invasion Pretext Under Fire
- From: John Wager <john.wager1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:38:53 -0500
Stan Spiegel wrote:
John writes:
Perhaps the point was that it was both immoral AND self-destructive to
bomb so many Hezbollah targets when they were so closely embedded in the
civilian population.
SS writes:
If you were following the news, John, you'd know that the IDF dropped
thousands and thousands of flyers informing the civilian population to
get out of there because there would be bombing going on shortly. They
gave up any hope of surprising Hezbollah in order to alert the
civilians what was planned.
A sign of thought that the Israelis should have expanded upon. But it
also shows that they KNEW lots of civilians were around, and they must
have also known by observation how FEW civilians had actually left by
the start of the bombing; they just didn't care if that many civilians
were left.
My criticism is not just that Israel acted immorally; I take it for
granted that the Hezbollah are orders of magnitude worse morally. My
criticism was that Israel's actions are literally "self-destructive:" It
did something that makes Israel LESS secure, ESPECIALLY since they had
the "high moral ground" EVEN AMONG SOME ARAB STATES. They have wasted
that for no good return.
In your commentary on the Israeli response, I only see you've called
israel immoral and self-destructive. Does that mean you think -- like
Omar -- that Israel should have let the bastards do what they will
without lifting a finger?
You notice there aren't too many Arab countries out there defending
Hezbollah. They're not just a royal pain to Israel.
Stan Spiegel
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Wager" <john.wager1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 1:42 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Israel's Invasion Pretext Under Fire
Stan Spiegel wrote:
Omar conveniently cites:
"Israeli forces have gone on to kill over 370 innocent Lebanese
civilians
(compared to 34 killed on Israel's side) while
displacing hundreds of thousands more."
As Omar knows, Hezbollah has enmeshed itself into the civilian
structure of Lebanese life: hides guns and all sorts of assault
weapons in children's bedrooms and apartment houses. It is Hezbollah
that recognizes no limits -- and to fight Hezbollah it becomes very
difficult without hurting some civilians.
Perhaps the point was that it was both immoral AND self-destructive
to bomb so many Hezbollah targets when they were so closely embedded
in the civilian population. Back in the Vietnam war, a general is
reported to have said "We had to destroy the village in order to save
it." The calculus of human death and suffering is never easy to
make, but I personally think Israel fell into a Hezbollah trap in
deciding to place the amount of civilian suffering at so low a
priority. Yes Israel needs to reduce the danger to its citizens, but
doing so in a way that temporarily relieves the number of rockets
fired while increasing the number of volunteer rocket firers seems
counter-productive. The U.S. may be slowly learning this lesson in
Iraq--It does no good to eliminate a "threat" if you do so in a way
that increases the number of people who will threaten you in the
future as a result.
Israel seems to have decided that just bombing the targets from the
air was not enough to stop the firings, and that a certain amount of
ground action is also needed. Someone in the Israeli air force
probably was arguing for using FEWER bombs precisely because they
would probably not work, and somebody else in Israel decided that
despite the lack of chance for success, the number of civilian
casualties should NOT prevent the bombing from taking place. This
seems both immoral and counter-productive to Israel's long-term
security. I suspect the reason that unnamed Israeli made the
decision to bomb those targets was the same reason American military
planners do the same thing--to avoid future military casualties in a
ground operation. But again, like the U.S., Israel may
(unfortunately) discover that their actions have produced more
hostility and more danger to the troops they sent in that those
troops would have been subject to if Israel had not been so cavalier
about its bombing targets.
--
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"Never attribute to malice that which can be
explained by incompetence and ignorance."
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John Wager john.wager1@xxxxxxxxxxx
Lisle, IL, USA
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