[LRflex] Re: ...M8 Photos & Infra-Red (for Ted)
- From: William Abbott <wbabbott3@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: leicareflex@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:47:55 -0800
Doug,
The hidden benefit of this approach is that common power supplies,
shutters and "digital film" (computer, OS, firmware and sensor) might
be possible across both range finder and SLR devices, bringing
economies to development, production, and logistic support of both.
Bill
On Nov 23, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Douglas Herr wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Great minds think alike. See
>
> <//www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/10-2006/msg00160.html>
>
> Doug Herr
> Birdman of Sacramento
> http://www.wildlightphoto.com
>
>
> On Nov 23, 2006, at 10:03 AM, William Abbott wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> In adversity (i.e. the M8 IR problem) there is opportunity, if it is
>> recognized.
>>
>> What I am about to write could be considered a rant so to be safe,
>> and to forewarn everybody, let me turn the Rant Button to "On" and
>> continue. Remember, the red Rant light is flashing. Please exit here
>> if you'd prefer not to listen. Thanks.
>>
>> Leica has "generally" upgraded usability features like control
>> placement and capability features like highest shutter speed only
>> when it infrequently changed camera body models. The most changeable
>> item in the total Leica camera system was one that could be changed
>> at will by the user, the film.
>>
>> Granted, Leica does make changes within a model design if forced to
>> do so, like the change in the early R8s, if I have that story
>> straight, and there may be others. It leads to multiple populations
>> of the "same" (not same!) article, which further leads to
>> configuration management and logistics challenges, but the means to
>> manage these have become finely developed in our digital world.
>>
>> The digital world is different and other camera makers (you know who
>> they are) have kept the same system as Leica's, described above, but
>> they have adopted a continual camera system upgrade policy by
>> instituting a rapid camera body obsolescence policy, changing models
>> at the drop of a hat, the antithesis of the Leica camera body change
>> policy. Buyers seem to tolerate it.
>>
>> Leica is part way to adopting a continual upgrade policy when it
>> changes firmware for a camera body model to introduce improvements,
>> although it is learning that such "improvements" can introduce
>> unwanted additional problems, a well know fact of life in the aero
>> industry.
>>
>> Where Leica could shine is to make an M8, say, that has readily
>> (maybe factory, maybe dealer) changeable digital "film," i.e.,
>> changeable computer, firmware and sensor. Both of those items are
>> where technological development has occurred and will occur in the
>> future. Bet on it.
>>
>> To summarize: The old camera is just a box to hold shutter, lens and
>> film, the latter changeable. The digital camera is just a box to hold
>> shutter, lens and digital "film," i.e.,the computer and its
>> operating system (micro-Linux,etc.), its firmware, and the sensor.
>>
>> Leica needs to do the system analysis and redraw their demarcation
>> between their camera "system" and the digital film "system," much
>> like the MF people have done with changeable MF digital backs and
>> software for Hasselblad and other MF cameras. It could be a powerful
>> feature in the M9 (or M8 Mod 1) and R10, IMHO.
>>
>> What I am proposing is this: That Leica build range finder and SLR
>> "devices" that contain a power supply and shutter and which will each
>> accommodate the full range (or most) of Leica lenses, with changeable
>> digital systems of sensor, computer, and firmware.
>>
>> The big plus is that latter could vary in technical capability (and
>> cost!) to suit various photography needs, from low resolution b&w to
>> high resolution, very fast, multiple exposure color.
>>
>> To do this would "simply" be (which means it is not simple!) a matter
>> of system design, configuration management, and creative engineering,
>> the same things Leica has been known for in the past. Will they do
>> it? I don't know, but I hope so. Their lenses deserve it.
>>
>> The Rant Button now set to "Off" and the Rant light has stopped
>> flashing.
>>
>> Thanks for listening.
>>
>> As ever,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2006, at 8:30 AM, David Young wrote:
>>
>>> Ted (who has trouble counting, early in the morning, asked:
>>>
>>>
>>>> David I have to ask one question about this IR stuff?
>>>>
>>>> Where does one find this happening and under what light
>>>> conditions?. Sorry 2
>>>> questions
>>>>
>>>> ted
>>>
>>> Good Mornin' Ted!
>>>
>>> The problem is that Leica, for whatever reason, neglected to put a
>>> sufficiently strong IR filter in front of the M8's sensor. (The M8
>>> does have an IR cutoff filter coated onto the sensor's protective
>>> plate. The problem is that it is not strong enough, and still passes
>>> significant amounts of IR.) This means that when you photograph
>>> black objects (black absorbs and radiates heat faster than other
>>> colours) which are substantially warmer that their surrounding
>>> objects (Black pants or T-shirts on a warm day might be a good
>>> example), show up as a blue-black or even deep purple.
>>>
>>> This happens because the IR radiation is picked up, along with the
>>> visible light. The IR (which is invisible to the naked eye) makes
>>> the
>>> image slightly 'overexposed' in those spots, thus lightening the
>>> image. Because of the nature of the Bayer filter, the result is not
>>> just a wee bit lighter, but a small colour shift.
>>>
>>> As for the severity of the problem... I took hundreds of shots with
>>> the two M8's I've tried (one of which I believe you also had a
>>> chance
>>> to use), and not found the problem. Others, like Tina Manley, do
>>> not
>>> seem to have any problems with it, either; while others, on various
>>> lists, are reporting automated corrections are possible in C1, the
>>> software which shipped with the camera. Still, some feel that this
>>> is a monumental problem.
>>>
>>> Certainly, it is a problem which never should have occurred, for ALL
>>> sensors are IR sensitive, and the wavelength response of each one is
>>> well known to all camera makers - including Leica.
>>>
>>> There has been a ton of discussion on this, primarily on the LUG, as
>>> there are more rangefinder users there. There have also been sample
>>> photos posted there, but a quick scan of the LUG archives yielded
>>> nothing after October...and the discussions have all been this
>>> month. You're on your own, there!
>>>
>>> An extreme example of the problem can be seen on the web page of
>>> that
>>> paragon of accurate info, Pop Photo:
>>>
>>> http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotographyfeatures/3403/marooned-
>>> leica-lovers.html
>>>
>>> A better description of the problem (though with what are, I think,
>>> somewhat misleading photos), can be found at:
>>>
>>> http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/free/Infrared/InfraredContamination/
>>> InfraredContamination.html
>>>
>>> There are, undoubtedly, better examples of the problem out there,
>>> but
>>> these are the ones I could quickly find. A few minutes with Google
>>> might do you well.
>>>
>>> The unofficial (and I stress - unofficial) response from Leica was
>>> reported this morning, by Bill Abbott, and is, essentially, as
>>> follows:
>>>
>>>> 1. The "Banding" and "Mirror/Ghost" effects have been thoroughly
>>>> investigated and the root cause has been identified and eliminated.
>>>> The remedy will enable every M8 to meet and exceed Leica
>>>> performance
>>>> standards. All customers that have purchased and taken delivery of
>>>> an M8 will be entitled to an upgrade performed in Solms, free of
>>>> charge. Specific measures will be taken to enhance customer loyalty
>>>> that will be outlined in detail in the memo's issued Monday. In
>>>> summary, every one of these customers will be entitled to
>>>> purchase a
>>>> new M lens at a 30% discount directly from the factory in Solms.
>>>>
>>>> 2. The above average sensitivity for infrared light can be
>>>> compensated by using an IR filter. Leica will make available two
>>>> free IR filters of any size (there are 7 filter sizes for the
>>>> current M lenses) for M8 purchasers. Delivery of these free of
>>>> charge IR filters is to commence in February, 2007.
>>>
>>> So, the good news is that everyone will get two free filters...
>>> which
>>> "should" handle the majority of any one users's lenses. These will
>>> undoubtedly be combination UV/IR low pass filters. The bad
>>> news, is
>>> that you'll need one for every lens you own, if you don't want to
>>> have to bother swapping filters around! That, and your camera will
>>> need a quick trip to Solms (or, possibly, New Jersey)!
>>>
>>> Apparently, shipments of the M8 will resume sometime next week.
>>>
>>> Whether these measures will be accepted by the Leica community or,
>>> for that matter, buyers now coming to Leica gear for the first time,
>>> will remain to be seen.
>>>
>>> Personally, I think that Leica should be exchanging the sensors when
>>> they recall the cameras to Solms to fix the banding problem. This
>>> would be a more expensive solution, but one which will do a lot more
>>> to solve Leica's image problem.
>>>
>>> In my crystal ball, I see am M8.2, with a "real" IR filter
>>> installed,
>>> in Leica's future!
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> David Young,
>>> Logan Lake, CANADA
>>>
>>> Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>>> Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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