[cryptome] Re: The CIA Saves Lives

  • From: doug <douglasrankine2001@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: cryptome@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:44:53 +0000

Hi Chien,
Thank you for your posting...and no I haven't take it in a hostile way...though I have expanded on a few of your points and developed them a bit. I hope you don't mind.

I have never been interrogated or tortured and I have never watched or participated in anyone being tortured, apart from what I have seen on the television.

Now, I have answered your question, would you like to answer mine. Have you ever been tortured or interrogated and/or have you ever participated in the torture and interrogation of another human being?

I have been involved in eliciting information from people, who have applied for jobs, denied doing something wrong, or tried to find out whether they are speaking the truth. Not easy in this world, particularly with highly skilled sales persons. Not that there is anything wrong with highly skilled sales persons, the ones who elicit information from you and match your needs, wants and desires to the product at the right price, are OK by me.

I have no connection with infosec, apart from beinginterested and pursuing it as a hobby.

I personally am retired...though I am one of John Young's "Sartre Waiters". I dare say, that with over 600 people on this list, that almost all of them are "Sartres' Waiters". It is that kind of list, lots of "lurkers"... :-). Playing their cards close to their chests, trying to elicit information, either for themselves or for others. Isn't that what mailing lists are all about?

I hope you don't consider me to be one of those "pious moralisers who sound off with such ferocious indignation..." I was never pious, am totally immoral, and find indignation too much hard work. I don't think I am intolerant or dogmatic either, for that matter. I am quite willing to apologise when I am wrong, accept another persons point of view, or agree or dispute facts, even when I don't agree with them. I even try to control my ego...difficult...

How about you... :-).

Now, whereas I agree that the current US establishment ideas on ruling the world need to be looked at again...if only because it isn't working. I don't think that waterboarding any of them would achieve that aim. The point is, it seems to me, is how does one change their minds, so that they become more democratic, less aggressive and stop trying to police the world and impose or support regimes which are to their liking but not necessarily democratic. Perhaps they need to retire, one hopes that all US citizens aren't like that...

Any views on that...

On 10/12/14 13:10, Chien Fume wrote:
Please do not take my comments in a hostile way.

Are we to assume that those of you who're commenting on this subject have direct experience with interrogation of hostile persons?

If so, have you ever been responsible for extracting information from an individual (or group of individuals) that you knew for a fact had been involved in acts of extreme violence and/or had been facilitators for such acts and/or were thought to be planning future acts of extreme violence?

I know (or think I know, maybe just believe) that many of you on this list do have direct experience with a variety of clandestine operations from the InfoSec side.

Some of you are still working in this world, either directly or as 'private contractors'. I don't expect you to reveal this to everyone.

But if you're going to become such pious moralizers and sound off with such ferocious indignation on this topic of interrogating individuals who are involved in an extreme and intolerant ideology that would eradicate every moral and social advance we've made over the past 150 years I do expect that you'll either admit you do have experience or that you don't.

If, by chance, you admit to having experience, please enlighten the rest of us in how you extract information from and individual (or group) who is 100% opposed to your very existence.

Personally, it's unfortunate that Americans can't find a way to waterboard the entire current Administration and use every other method of enhanced interrogation to find out what's really going on with this group of people who seem to be much more like Pol Pot and Joe Stalin than people who are interested in preserving a system of government that, like it or not, has done more good than harm.

Chien Fume

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 2:02 PM, doug <douglasrankine2001@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:douglasrankine2001@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:


    They still believe in their own lies...even though they have been
exposed as myths so many times. What kind of people are they? Don't they even read the eminent research which has been carried
    out in their own country,  that there are better ways of obtaining
    information from suspects?  There is a whole science devoted to
    the subject.

    Also, why did they only allow CIA officers with a previous record
    of abuse and violence and personality disorders to become the
    interrogators, without any training in any form of interrogation,
    advanced or otherwise?  Why wasn't it overseen, why weren't
    records kept. One would have thought that if it was all above
    board, legal, justifiable, and heaven forbid, moral and ethical
    and in the kidnapped'ts best interests as well as that of the
    nation, that there would have been plenty of records kept; if only
    to prove that it worked in theory and practice, and to show that
    no illegal practices had been used.  Instead they  illegally
    destroyed even the videos made of the torture..because they said
    they were valueless. A new meaning for the word "incriminating"
    more like.

    I seem to remember one story on Cryptome, where one female CIA
    officer, rather high up the heirarchy who was part of a team
    trying to catch Bin Laden was so keen to get to the interrogations
    that she moved rock and stone to get there. I wonder if it was
    satisfying and what information did she receive after the 187th
    time the suspect was water boarded. Did it help her to catch Bin
    Laden and to win the war on terrorism.  Nice to know that there is
    equality between the sexes at the CIA.

    $80 million dollars paid to a couple of inexperienced
    psychologists...to make sure that the program was done credibly
    and with respectability?  A total of $180 million spent on the

    Why did they involve so many other countries in their
    "extaordinary rendition" trips and pay to have bases built in some
    of the most respectable as well as nefarious countries in the
    world.  Why not have them on US territory? After all it was all legal.

    I remember too, here in the UK the overflights and stopovers by
    privately hired areoplanes carrying out the extraordinary
rendition, was denied by Jack Straw, the then Foreign Secretary. It took aeroplane fanatics who took photos and accessed flight
    records to prove that they had happened. The UK of course, has
    signed the Human Rights Act and as signatory to the European
    Convention on Human Rights and supports the European Court of
    Human Rights.  No torture, no support for torture.   We were
    supposed to have learned our lessons from using similar methods
    against IRA suspects way back in the "troubles".

    Have no crimes been committed here?  Will no one be prosecuted for
    crimes against humanity?  Will the US still wage war and interfere
    in other countries in the name of Enduring Freedom and Human
    Rights... Begins to sound a bit hollow, but there you are that is
    politics for you...

    It is as well to remember that the greatest advocates for human
    rights were the US prosecutors at the Nuremburg trials of the
    Nazis. "Obeying lawful orders does not excuse abuse of the higher
    human right to life"...Jackson...Leading US Prosecutor.

    see url: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/nuremberg.html


    Ah!  Well!  At least these human beings aren't cats...they didn't
    eat their prey.

Other related posts: