[access-uk] Re: Anyone on this list using a Mac with Tiger?
- From: "Tristram Llewellyn" <tris-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:49:37 +0100
The success of VoiceOver will be in it's future long term development not
necessarily in it's present state as it is now. It will take money and time
to keep this project going forward so VoiceOver will have to be more than a
section 508 buster. It is useable, though I think this aspect needs
improving before you get levels of instinctive interaction that you would
get with may of the Windows screen readers (all of which have had many more
development hours in them). A culture of accessibility would have to exist
in the Mac domain in a way that it doesn't just at the moment.
People may feel the Main Menu article was good, but it didn't even scratch
the surface, what about using Finder with VoiceOver. One of the main issues
which Ray mentioned in a post was the eschewing of keyboard navigation,
which means using VoiceOver with anything serious is quite unlike that of
Windows. On Mac a lot more things are not available via "Keyboard focus" as
VoiceOver likes to call it (Jaws equivolent of PC cursor), like being able
to tab to something in a window, instead you need to use the VoiceOver focus
which can travel anywhere and then you can interact with that item. When
you use Finder you start to get some kind of flavour for what screen reading
with VoiceOver is like. It's not only very different to what you learn in
Windows but also occassionally has areas that really can trip you up. You
can find yourself drifting out of windows that you were using cursor keys in
to end up in the one to the right if you happen to press a right arrow.
Then try navigating back to your sidebar where you can quickly select
different aspects of your Mac. I found this difficultm and imagine others
will find it really quite frustrating at first.
Perhaps Windows users see a rosy garden over the fence, but having brought a
Mac I brought one of the few Mac orientated magazines to see how the other
half live. One story in this months issue was about a Mac OS update for the
64bit systems which disabled hundreds of software titles on users machines.
Many software support lines were besuiged by users whose software simply
stopped working after the Apple update. Some software dvelopers producing
temporary patches that disabled 64bit until a solution could be found for
the problem. In another part of this mag was a featured user letter which
essentially suggested that the kind of things the Mac used to do well with
Fonts for DTP type tasks was now compromised by the new Mac OS X operating
system and that too much attention being paid to gimmicks in OS 10.4 that
took away from improving it for ordinary tasks.
I hope this may give some insight into the Mac world for those interested in
the thread and give it a bit of richness in debate.
Regards.
Tristram Llewellyn
Sight and Sound Technology
Technical Support
www.sightandsound.co.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:51 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Anyone on this list using a Mac with Tiger?
Well, as so often happens here, Andrew's original question has morphed
somewhat, into a screen reader/narrator/who likes Apple computers anyway -
sort of debate! Its all useful and interesting too. I hope my reflections
might add a little to the debate.
I am not at all sure I agree with Peter's likening of Speakover to Narrator.
Very rare I fire up narrator, but I am sure that does nothing outside of
reading the desktop, menus, dialogues etc, which is all that its meant to
do.
Interestingly, one screen reader vendor told me at SV that the Apple screen
reader was mis-conceived and they shouldn't have gone further than MS has
done with Narrator. He was less than optimistic about the sort of support
Apple could, or would give users who ran into problems. Well, its tempting
to say, 'he would say that, wouldn't he?' (A saying that originated with an
unvirtuous lady who lived not far from me in the sixties - but I digress!
Rather like this list, the Apple Visionaries list is most likely a very
active source of support. I wonder what experiences Apple users have had
when phoning Apple support? Certainly, the tremendous apparent cost
advantage is going to weigh increasingly with us VI users, especially when
you consider another of Peter's remarks about SMA's. I do wonder if this
first release of Tiger was indeed rushed out, to meet the commitment of
being included in the Tiger release. The next upgrade should be very
interesting.
I think we must always remember that those who review such products as
Tiger's screen reader can hardly escape some element of personal bias and
preference. If they come from a certain background i.e. the music and
multi-media world, they are tremendously biased and in love with their Macs
and won't here a decent word said for Microsoft! Its almost a matter of
honour with those working in the very image conscious media world NOT to use
anything else.
Meanwhile, back in the more pedestrian world of office apps, those of us in
the VI world who have hardly had any option but to use Windows have much to
thank MS for over the years - as well as a good deal to fume about! Windows
from the start had , thanks to Bill Gates, keyboard support; something the
Mac eschewed for a very long time. What couldn't be done with a mouse
wasn't worth doing, sort of attitude. On the other hand, I feel that
Windows 9x was a terrible run around; if only we could have gone from 3x
straight to XP; but then MS had its own strategies, and had to finally
ensure that IBM wasn't a force to be reckoned with. Yes, politics plays its
part, like it or not.
There are essential differences in detail and philosophy between Mac and
Windows, and the desktop metaphor and find tools have very different ways of
working, and that's just for starters. Also, and I'd like to know if this
has relevance for Speakover users, the Apple OS has Apple Script, which can
do a lot to enable you to create your own keyboard shortcuts and a good deal
else. I would say, in the end, you must judge the competing Apple/MS
systems within their own terms as OS's, and how well and effectively they
get the job done. Its hard for anyone to put themselves outside the frame
of reference of what they have become familiar with, but one has to try and
do this if one is to be fair and accurate in an assessment of what it is the
competitors do and how well they do it.
Ray
Personal emails: Email me at
mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Matthews"
Not only this, but there wouldn't be the worry of keeping up with an SMA. As
I understand it, updates to the Voiceover software would be part of the OS
update, which stands to reason I guess.
Cheers,
Mark
Mark Matthews
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Peter Logue
I'll like the idea too. If only the voice was better. I wish Jerry could
have done the demo with an A T T voice or something half decent. I like the
idea of a stable OS, as my windows, or windows slash jaws, crashes on a
regular basis, alt F4 on any given program and I risk losing jaws in the
process. I can pretty much guarantee that I can't go two full days without
needing to reboot. And please don't anyone advise on Wineyes. Smiles.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Andrew Hodgson
Hi all,
I will be buying (probably) a Mac Mini in the coming days and really do look
forward to trying it out.
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