[access-uk] Re: Anyone on this list using a Mac with Tiger?
- From: "Tristram Llewellyn" <tris-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:22:55 +0100
I haven't actually, it's just my observation of the situation and musing,
rather than suggestions for a programme. I think there may be two problems
with my initial suggestions:
1 In order for Apple to offer the second tier of VoiceOver access they
will have to have a product or have sound reasoning they can produce
something better. They would have to asess marketability of such things.
Some on Mac visionaries forum members would probably be apalled at my
suggestion in this regard.
2 Spinning off part of the project to external developers may not be
Apple's idea of a good move. How much info do you give them, how much
control should be retained. This sort of partnership has not been done
before on the basis of AT software to my knowledge.
Regards.
Tristram Llewellyn
Sight and Sound Technology
Technical Support
www.sightandsound.co.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:20 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Anyone on this list using a Mac with Tiger?
Hi Tristram.
Have you posted your suggestions to the Mac Visionaries forum? Seem
eminently sensible to me.
Ray
Personal emails: Email me at
mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tristram Llewellyn"
| Ray posted
|
| "... there isn't, and not likely to be, any competition to Voiceover "
|
| This IMHO is the crux of the issue, there will not be enough of an income
| stream from this to keep the project going. VoiceOver will have to
compete
| with all sorts of O/S projects and will have a very small slice of the
cake.
| Macs feature more greatly in government and educational use in the States
| but even so had fallen back very badly during the 1990s. This is where
the
| motivation being VoiceOver I think is coming from.
|
| One of two solutions I think may be found for this:
| 1 Apple introduces another product tier that allows them to develop and
| sell and extended VoiceOver to customers who want latest access.
| 2 To spin of extended VoiceOver developement into a separate possible
| even public domain type structure where independant developers can add to
| the system by sharing the load amongst a wider community.
|
| Regards.
|
| Tristram Llewellyn
| Sight and Sound Technology
| Technical Support
| www.sightandsound.co.uk
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:13 AM
| Subject: [access-uk] Re: Anyone on this list using a Mac with Tiger?
|
|
| Some very interesting responses here, and I really look forward to hearing
| Andrew's thoughts when he's got his Apple Mini.
|
| the fact there isn't, and not likely to be, any competition to Voiceover
| means its all the more imperative that Apple hear's what users are saying
| about Voiceover. Its not as though they can scurry off and try the
| competition.
|
| Tristram is certainly right about OSX not being bug free. I've seen
similar
| comments in Sound On Sound about things being in the upgrade process.
Let's
| not forget though that updates in the Mac world are OS updates, not just
the
| screen reader. Apple users complain quite busted quite loudly about the
| $100 or more a year anual upgrade charge, and its not as though they can
| usually opt out, because upgrades of applications for the Mac usually
wont'
| work without them upgrading.
|
| It isn't really a case of the 'other man's grass being greener'.
| Ray
|
| Personal emails: Email me at
| mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Andrew Hodgson"
|
| Hi Ray,
|
| I also feel that you can't compaire Voice Over to Narator. its all very
| well saying that Apple shouldn't have gone further in making the screen
| reader, only putting the minimum in like Narator did, however, at the time
| they did it, there was no other (and there still is no other) reader for
the
| OSX environment. Outspoken will only run under OS9, which is now very
old.
| One argument is now no-one will probably develop a Mac reader, because it
is
| integrated, and Apple are not encouraging competition like Microsoft are.
|
| Andrew.
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Ray's Home
| Sent: Wed 14/09/2005 08:51
| To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
| Subject: [access-uk] Re: Anyone on this list using a Mac with Tiger?
|
| Well, as so often happens here, Andrew's original question has morphed
| somewhat, into a screen reader/narrator/who likes Apple computers anyway -
| sort of debate! Its all useful and interesting too. I hope my
reflections
| might add a little to the debate.
|
| I am not at all sure I agree with Peter's likening of Speakover to
Narrator.
| Very rare I fire up narrator, but I am sure that does nothing outside of
| reading the desktop, menus, dialogues etc, which is all that its meant to
| do.
|
| Interestingly, one screen reader vendor told me at SV that the Apple
screen
| reader was mis-conceived and they shouldn't have gone further than MS has
| done with Narrator. He was less than optimistic about the sort of support
| Apple could, or would give users who ran into problems. Well, its
tempting
| to say, 'he would say that, wouldn't he?' (A saying that originated with
an
| unvirtuous lady who lived not far from me in the sixties - but I digress!
|
| Rather like this list, the Apple Visionaries list is most likely a very
| active source of support. I wonder what experiences Apple users have had
| when phoning Apple support? Certainly, the tremendous apparent cost
| advantage is going to weigh increasingly with us VI users, especially when
| you consider another of Peter's remarks about SMA's. I do wonder if this
| first release of Tiger was indeed rushed out, to meet the commitment of
| being included in the Tiger release. The next upgrade should be very
| interesting.
|
| I think we must always remember that those who review such products as
| Tiger's screen reader can hardly escape some element of personal bias and
| preference. If they come from a certain background i.e. the music and
| multi-media world, they are tremendously biased and in love with their
Macs
| and won't here a decent word said for Microsoft! Its almost a matter of
| honour with those working in the very image conscious media world NOT to
use
| anything else.
|
| Meanwhile, back in the more pedestrian world of office apps, those of us
in
| the VI world who have hardly had any option but to use Windows have much
to
| thank MS for over the years - as well as a good deal to fume about!
Windows
| from the start had , thanks to Bill Gates, keyboard support; something
the
| Mac eschewed for a very long time. What couldn't be done with a mouse
| wasn't worth doing, sort of attitude. On the other hand, I feel that
| Windows 9x was a terrible run around; if only we could have gone from 3x
| straight to XP; but then MS had its own strategies, and had to finally
| ensure that IBM wasn't a force to be reckoned with. Yes, politics plays
its
| part, like it or not.
|
| There are essential differences in detail and philosophy between Mac and
| Windows, and the desktop metaphor and find tools have very different ways
of
| working, and that's just for starters. Also, and I'd like to know if this
| has relevance for Speakover users, the Apple OS has Apple Script, which
can
| do a lot to enable you to create your own keyboard shortcuts and a good
deal
| else. I would say, in the end, you must judge the competing Apple/MS
| systems within their own terms as OS's, and how well and effectively they
| get the job done. Its hard for anyone to put themselves outside the frame
| of reference of what they have become familiar with, but one has to try
and
| do this if one is to be fair and accurate in an assessment of what it is
the
| competitors do and how well they do it.
|
| Ray
|
| Personal emails: Email me at
| mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Mark Matthews"
|
| Not only this, but there wouldn't be the worry of keeping up with an SMA.
As
| I understand it, updates to the Voiceover software would be part of the OS
| update, which stands to reason I guess.
|
| Cheers,
|
| Mark
|
| Mark Matthews
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of
| Peter Logue
|
| I'll like the idea too. If only the voice was better. I wish Jerry could
| have done the demo with an A T T voice or something half decent. I like
the
| idea of a stable OS, as my windows, or windows slash jaws, crashes on a
| regular basis, alt F4 on any given program and I risk losing jaws in the
| process. I can pretty much guarantee that I can't go two full days without
| needing to reboot. And please don't anyone advise on Wineyes. Smiles.
|
| Peter
|
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of
| Andrew Hodgson
|
| Hi all,
|
| I will be buying (probably) a Mac Mini in the coming days and really do
look
| forward to trying it out.
|
|
|
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