[56raf_firebirds] Re: Skirmish over the northern Kuban sea
- From: "Lee Fisher" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender "l.fisher" for DMARC)
- To: 56raf_firebirds@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:00:29 +0100
On 30 Apr 2021, at 4:22 pm, 56RAF_phoenix <phoenix@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I think the "drop bombs and fight" is simply a myth
You do a great disservice to the aggresivness of the RAF Fighter pilots who
flew against the Nazis.
While reading Shores & Thomas 2nd TAF Volume 1, firstly I was surprised by how
many, almost exclusively, Fighter sweeps and Armed Recce sorties were carried
out following D-Day by Spitfires and Mustangs, the GA being mostly being done
by Typhoons and medium bombers, there were a very few occasions, only 1 in
June, such as the following, where Fighters did some ground attack and saw
enemy fighters before target.
20 June ’44.
19 Squadron Mustangs sent to bomb marshalling yards at Rambouillet, before the
attack could be made 16 Fw190’s of III./JG54 were seen over Dreux, bombs were
dropped so the Mustangs could give battle. 2 190’s were shot down and 6 damaged
for the loss of one Mustang, the pilot bailed and evaded capture.
There are numerous accounts of Spitfire IX's and Mustang III's engaging enemy
fighters after strafing ground targets or bombing, even though they would still
have the bomb shackles fitted!
The emphasis seems to have been that the enemy fighters were a real threat
"immediately" but also, they had the potential to be a future threat to all
allied aircraft so should be destroyed.
Witch
, with perhaps the exception of the P-38 at 25k+ feet. Because only a very
foolish attacker would turn with us and lose energy.
Plus, as Roke says, the Tempest is pretty poor already up high. But the P-38
becomes a liability low down unless the enemy is stupid again.
We've often got caught on the way off target in previously bombed-up P-38s,
less often in Tempests.
We had a very memorable engagement in bombed-up P-38s a few months ago when I
suggested going right over the top of the front line on a snowy map. I think
we were massively in contrail and the axis fighters all had to grab to get to
us, but couldn't resist. The moment one of us lost concentration on maximum
climb, they were onto us (I think we lost Stickz first). Then his lead turned
a bit, lost height, and they were onto him. I had chandelled and my wingman
(Bo?) almost lost it, I jettisoned bombs, kept straight and just about
avoided a flank attacker who then dropped out.
We made it home eventually, but not to target. I was a failure of a mission,
but very instructive.
It seems to me that if you're intent on a fighter-bombing mission, if you
want to get there safely you're better off in a P-38, if you want to get back
safely you're better off in a Tempest.
So we'd better have tactics to mitigate the risky end.
I have some strategy thoughts that I won't share with the Blaggards!
56RAF_phoenix
On 30/04/2021 13:42, Colin (Redacted sender bart_56 for DMARC) wrote:
I was really trying to ascertain why warnings are not acted on, comms, etc.
How cooperative the two squads were getting in missions etc.
We have had this discussion a few times, but doing attacks on objectives are
difficult at the best of times whether you go low or medium altitude. It’s
the way the maps are designed that congregates the meeting of the
the two forces. I don’t think there is an easy answer.
Close escort to bombers at medium to low alt is extremely hard, how many
times when engaged has that really worked that the bombers and all escort
make it home?
If we take the last two scenarios we were involved in, the first one we
provide high (22’000ft) cover to a low level attack. We fended off 4 high
fighters, but unfortunately the low close escort lost 3 fighters to 2 low
fighters the bombers made it home.
The second scenario we were the enemy, the medium to high alt close escort
to the medium alt ground attackers. The escort lost 3 out of 4 aircraft and
the ground attackers lost 2 out of 4, to 3 high enemy aircraft.
The key on both of these has been altitude the higher the altitude the more
options you have. There are other things we could also bring into this to
off set the altitude advantage etc, but I would be writing forever lol.
There is not a “I always win button” solution I am afraid, and one method
might work one but not the next. I am a believer to try and put yourself in
the best possible position that gives you more options and take the options
away from the enemy. Above all team work gives you the most options, but
harder to control as the team gets bigger, as everyone might not be as
switched on to the same level.
Colin
On 30 Apr 2021, at 11:36, dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Working out the best way to fly with Java is a challenge at present.
For a fast, fighter-bomber mission like on Sunday, there is a danger at
present that all they will do is end up being sacrificial decoys if
attacked by higher enemies. And also add some confusion for the rest of us
as to what's going on.
Perhaps - for that mission profile - asking Java to fly ahead and light up
the radar at a different, but nearby target might be a useful alternative
approach?
As for the 'attacked by higher enemies' bit, we all know the Tempest at
25k+ with 2000lbs of bombs is a dog. But if we had been that high when the
Blaggards first spotted us, things would have gone differently. At the
least, we would have had more options - and no real need of direct escort
anyway. There's no implied criticism there BTW, had I been leading on
Sunday I probably wouldn't have gone that high either.
When flying bombers, or for a low level attack, having Java fly closer
escort on the other hand could still be the right way to go. I'm all for
flying together, but if the limitations we've seen recently aren't likely
to change we just have to take that into account.
Roke
On Friday, 30 April 2021, 10:05:18 BST, 56RAF_phoenix
<phoenix@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:phoenix@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
You're mostly right there Colin, but to labour the points:
I'm not sure language is really a problem... their English is rather
better than my Dutch!
Close escort is really, really hard, as Bo and I found when we trivially
massacred an escorted Ju52 a couple of weeks ago.
But they have a real formation discipline problem, for example one of
them got lost or something and was coming in late, so when I called my
warning I wasn't sure and nor were they. I don't think our relationship
as squads is close enough for joint training yet.
As to the Reverb G2 spotting, I haven't got good settings yet (another
email to follow in due course), for example the murky conditions on
CombatBox last night were dreadful for me. They also had the "moving
cockpit" problem and I talked them through that later, though one of
them seemed to know the answer anyway.
Having taken over when Cina had to leave, I was kind of in "bomber
survival" mode because we don't often do bombed-up Tempests. It's very
different because with rear gunners, I set mine to long-distance and get
plenty of warning. So I wasn't playing to our strength, which would have
been to ditch the bombs. But that would still have left us with an
energy disadvantage. So I think turning South was right, but I should
have taken the time to make it a tac-turn so that Roke & Stickz were
abreast. Then ditched the bombs and extended to equalise energy.
Either way, most of Java would have been dead by then. So you could
argue that it would have been just as good to continue to target and get
at least some military objective.
I know this will sound brutal, but the escort really have to be able to
look after themselves because bombers/bombed-up fighters will never have
enough energy to come to their immediate help.
You may remember you killed a few of us at low level a few months ago on
the deck in a similar way and I proposed an unconventional flight layout
to provide better outward coverage. That's pretty much all bombers can
offer to the escort.
56RAF_phoneix
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