No real argument here; I simply read your post as carrying the subtext that Sunnis are marginalized in favour of the Shiites (religious fundamentalists). Re. these "little things I do", you can't please all the people all of the time -- I'm always, naturally, too verbose or too brief for someone. This time it happened to be you, and too brief. I thought you would recognize what I was referring to. Julie Krueger ========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: A Genuinely Useful Thought Date: 1/11/2007 1:09:44 P.M. Central Standard Time From: _lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx) To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on: Try and make complete arguments if you can. These little things you do don’ t make any sense. As I have said on numerous occasions, I am very much opposed to Religious fundamentalism of all sorts. Lawrence ____________________________________ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:43 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: A Genuinely Useful Thought <<The alternative to a viable successful government in Iraq isn’t Chaos, it is three viable successful governments, or perhaps only two, the Kurds and the Shias. The Sunnis better give up messing around if they want to retain anything in Iraq. >> I think I finally understand, Lawrence. To you, religious fundamentalism is a good thing. I'm starting to understand your perspective. Julie Krueger ========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: A Genuinely Useful Thought Date: 1/9/2007 3:24:06 A.M. Central Standard Time From: _lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx) To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on: Andreas: I went all through this misunderstanding with Irene. I said the Baathist were Militant Islamics. They are Militant and they are Islamics. The threat isn’t just from religious Militants. Baathism was intended to achieve Pan-Arabism, bringing all the Arab nations under one head. It was begun by Nassar who was assassinated. Saddam liked the idea as well. He was just as much of a threat with his Pan-Arabism as Khomeini was with his religious revolution. They both wanted the same thing, and then they fought. Well yes Militant Islam is a threat and no we don’t need to leave a viable successful government in Iraq. The alternative to a viable successful government in Iraq isn’t Chaos, it is three viable successful governments, or perhaps only two, the Kurds and the Shias. The Sunnis better give up messing around if they want to retain anything in Iraq. Pulled into war? Were any nations pulled into war when Iran and Iraq fought for eight years? No. As to needing oil. We don’t need that oil. Europe, China, Japan etc needs it. We probably need to make sure those nations get their oil and those nations count on us to keep the flow going, but we can do that. We are the only nation in the world that can project an army-sized fighting force any place in the world. Perhaps Britain is next but they are getting rid of their navy. . . . Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’ve already told us how evil Bush is, but you don’t appreciate how evil Saddam was and what a danger he represented with his Baathist Pan-Arab aggressive plans. We would not have been better of leaving him to his own devices. No, our army isn’t broken. We could fight another Saddam-Hussein-sized Army next month if we needed to. What we couldn’t do is spend another three years or perhaps even three months trying to rebuild an Iraq-sized nation. It is the latter thing we can’t do not the former. Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 11:59 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: A Genuinely Useful Thought From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > I see our goal as combating Militant Islam. Baathism, especially Saddam's variation was a > variety of it is included. The Baathist were secular. They were NOT an Islamic party, in fact, that was one of the reasons al-Qaeda called for the overthrow of the Baathist regime. Militant Islam isn't the issue in Iraq. That's a false threat, like WMDs, etc. The problem in Iraq is the several dozen militia who are fighting each other for control of the country. > Is it utterly necessary that we leave a viable successful government in Iraq > after we leave? Yes. It's utterly necessary. If we leave and the country collapses into war, the neighboring countries will be pulled into the war (the Saudi to protect their ally Sunni and keep Iran's Shiites from getting too powerful; the Turks to keep the Kurds from getting too powerful; and Iran to protect their Shiite allies). That starts a large-scale regional war (Read abou the Iran-Irak War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War . That's the size of wars they can fight.) Why do we care? Because something like 80% of the world's oil is in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait. If a regional war starts, it will have extremely serious and negative effects on the global economy. That's the problem: Bush got the USA into a war that it now can't quit. This is far worse than Vietnam. In Vietnam, we just walked away. Nothing really mattered. But the economy is globalized now. The most likely outcome of the next year or so: the USA will move its military into the bordering countries, esp. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The US will try to convince Syria, Iran, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia to not fuel the civil war. All of these countries, incl. the USA, are in a Mexican standoff: everyone has their guns out and whomever starts shooting will start a free-for-all. Items to consider: the US military is broken. There are only 9,000 more soldiers. How the US would fight a large land war is a good question. Furthermore, this is too complex for the American population. Without general support, the war is unfightable. It's pretty bad. yrs, andreas www.andreas.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html