Good point, I was thinking of a user but not a seller.
Bill
Sent from my Commodore 64
On Sep 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Anthony Cesaroni <acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
“If you are talking about commercial motors, then the person who bought the
motor(s) is the end user and does not need to placard; so doing invited the
state police to pull the vehicle over to check the paperwork....”
Not necessarily. If he, she or it is an entity offering a revenue service
such as a launch or an operational qualification etc., as examples, that can
be defined as commerce by the AHJ. Every situation is different for a long
list of reasons, but a good legal vetting is a good idea.
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bill Claybaugh
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 6:49 PM
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Paul:
If you are talking about commercial motors, then the person who bought the
motor(s) is the end user and does not need to placard; so doing invited the
state police to pull the vehicle over to check the paperwork....
WRT home built motors, it is less clear: the safe thing--literally--is to
cast on sight. Legal manufacture of solid rocket motors does not occur at
home: local (Fire Department); state (Fire Marshall, state police); and
inter-state (state police, DOT) all have a say in this...if your launch is
using home built motors that have been shipped across state lines it is all
but certain that laws have been broken by the time that motor gets to your
event.
Bill
Sent from my Commodore 64
On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:49 PM, Paul Mueller <paul.mueller.iii@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thank you for the replies, everyone--it's a bit more complicated than I had
envisioned (DOT, BATFE, State Department, etc.). What a mess! Kind of makes
me glad I'm not a motor manufacturer!
I don't think I'll be able to figure out all the detailed rules, but this
seems like a reasonable approach to keep the highway patrol happy if someone
gets pulled over and first responders safe(r) in case of an accident:
1) letter certifying that vehicle occupants (with names and affiliations) are
participants in the competition and are bringing a motor in their vehicle
2) paper placards to tape to inside of windows on both sides
3) MSDS sheets as applicable
4) have the motor in similar packaging as when shipped by UPS, etc. (sealed
cardboard box with packing material, hazmat label)
I probably won't worry about teams bringing black powder or black powder
substitute, since it appears that quantities less than 50 lbs are not a major
concern for law enforcement...? After all, the public can buy it at sporting
goods stores without any ID, placards on their cars, etc.
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 3:45 AM, <rclague@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I learn something new every day. "Person," as defined in Appedix A of the
user's guide, would *not* include an amateur rocketeer transporting his or
her own propellant for his or her own use.
How does that relate to "interstate = in commerce" in the definition of
"commerce?" A: The construction of the regulations is almost always, "No
person shall <regulated activity> without <appropriate permission from DOT>."
Transporting hazardous material in commerce is a regulated activity. So it
may not lawfully be done by any "person." But "person" is very specifically
defined, and it does not include the case we are talking about.
I withdraw my caveat to Anthony's post. Anthony, I apologize. I did not
intend to cast aspersions upon your expertise. Bruce, thanks for pushing
back. I learned something, and we all got better information out of it.
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: rclague@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 09:04:02 +0000
To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ReplyTo: rclague@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
It's on the page I cited earlier, in Appendix A Definitions, second
definition Commerce. I'm looking for the specific CFR section that drives
that line on the web page. (While that web page, coming as it does from DOT,
may be presumed to be authoritative, it is basically a user's guide and does
not have the force of law.)
BTW, 49 CFR 171.1(d)(6) contains the exemption for private individuals in
private vehicles.
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: Bruce Beck <bbeck7@xxxxxxxxx>
Sender: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:08:52 -0600
To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ReplyTo: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Please reference the part of the law that says crossing state lines means you
are in commerce.
On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:28 PM, <rclague@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The DOT site
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hazardous-materials/how-comply-federal-hazardous-materials-regulations
is surprisingly comprehensible. Note, if you try to read the whole thing in
one sitting, you will get discouraged. Take it in small bites.
One caveat to Anthony's reply: carrying something across a state line is
carrying it "in commerce," by definition. That's one of the reasons ERPS flew
KISS out of MTA instead of out of Black Rock.
One response to overregulation is to "just do it." Buy the placards, type up
the shipping papers, etc. This approach has much to recommend it. But.
It's always a good idea to have shipping papers: to write them, you need
answers to questions not every amateur thinks to ask. Having shipping papers
also goes a long way toward reassuring the highway patrol you know what
you're doing, if you should happen to get pulled over. "Yes, officer, I'm
so-and-so, with group such-and-such. We're on our way to <where> with <nouns>
to <verb>. We're actually exempt from the hazmat regulations because
<reason>, but there's good advice in there, which we took. Fire extinguisher
is over here, another one over here just in case, face shields, gloves,
non-sparking hammer, all natural fabrics... Here are the shipping papers,
manifest, MSDS, copy of the hazmat regulations (if it's visibly indexed and
cross-referenced, so much the better), we have Chemtrex on speed dial, do you
want us to give you a call when we get there? It's no trouble." (If they
don't know the shipping papers and the manifest are the same thing, or that
the MSDS is included, that's on them.)
However. Placarding is not a "just do it." You are required to placard if you
are carrying something subject to the hazmat regs. And you are prohibited
from placarding if you are not carrying something subject to the hazmat regs.
You can't just post a placard and check off that box. You have to actually
sit down and figure out which side of the line you're on. That can be
difficult, because the regs weren't written for amateurs carrying their own
rocket propellant.
If you're subject to placard requirements, you're also subject to several
other requirements. Complying with the former creates the impression that
you're subject to the latter, and some of the latter may be out your price
range. Also, a placard on a private vehicle will get a highway patrolman's
attention right away. ERPS didn't placard, and if anyone got pulled over,
they didn't tell me about it.
If you don't placard, and you get pulled over, they may ask why you didn't
placard. "That's a good idea, and we wanted to, but we're not allowed to.
It's here in Part 172..."
Oh, another requirement you won't have to meet but it's a good idea: training
documentation. Print the MSDS and any handling instructions you might have,
have a meeting, and walk through them. Write down everyone's name, what you
talked about, and the date. You've just documented a training session. If
you're working out of someone's book, you can call it a textbook and do the
same thing.
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: "Anthony Cesaroni" <acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sender: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:28:40 -0400
To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ReplyTo: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Paul,
Your questions aren’t dumb. It’s just they require a bit of typing to answer
reasonably accurately. My comments below cover a very tiny bit of an answer
but I’ll try.
I will tell you that shipping homemade propellants/explosives of any kind by
commercial carrier is illegal. You must have a DOT classification, EX number
and shipping specification in order to do so. The only exception is for small
quantities to be shipped under specific conditions to the DOT or one of its
accredited labs for classification. This unless they are willing to accept
associative classification by formula and configuration submission. That is
getting harder to do these days and the best you may expect is class 1.3
which is a real expensive proposition in terms of shipping costs. It doesn’t
matter if it’s an M motor or a sounding rocket, it’s a dedicated truck with a
lot of provisos and fuel surcharges. It costs $15K to ship a motor from my
main plant to WSMR or KSC etc. for example so we usually piggyback the run to
help reduce costs. If your motors are small and you’ve gone through all these
steps, you can apply for a DOT special permit or SP number. This allows you
to ship as class 1.4 for example but only under strict conditions and carrier
limitations. These only have basis in the U.S. so don’t even consider export
using them. One unusual SP is 8451, otherwise known as the pipe bomb
exemption. It allows you to ship up to 25 grams of unclassified material in a
threaded closed pressure rated 3” pipe packed in a UN spec. plywood case that
weighs about 75 pounds and you’ll need a good reason to do so. The theory is
that 25 grams of PETN won’t defeat it so most other explosives shouldn’t. I’m
not sure if it’s been tested with Hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane (CL20) or if
they would allow it.
You can only legally transport “unregulated”, homemade, APCP that you have
made yourself on a public highway in your private vehicle. You cannot sell it
or have a commercial carrier transport it otherwise it is considered “in
commerce” and you can get in very deep trouble if you get caught doing so.
Then there are also potential liability, local AHJ, knee jerk law
enforcement, environmental and legal issues that I won’t even begin to try
and explain here, particularly if something goes wrong. The technically
illiterate media will make matters even worse.
Regarding initiators and ignitors. There are BATF “unregulated” fuse heads
commercially available. They still have a shipping classification and it’s
generally 1.4S. The reason that some are unregulated is they consist of a
thermite based energetic composition that is not on the ATF explosives list.
Anything that falls under the USML is under the jurisdiction of the DDTC at
the state department. They have no sense of humor and the inside moto is
“bring us a man, we will find the crime”. If it’s dual use, you have the
department of commerce to worry about. In both cases this general applies if
you are manufacturing or providing services for the military but most
importantly, if you are exporting any form of technology that falls under
their jurisdiction. They can make rules up as they go along BTW and you don’t
have to physically export the technology to get busted. Even telling or
showing an non-US person anything ITAR, USML, MTCR technical data, it’s
considered an export and can you busted. A U.S. person is a U.S. citizen,
U.S. permanent resident or lawfully admitted refugee.
A lot of propellant precursor chemicals have got a bad name and receive a lot
of scrutiny due some end user, bad actors, often but not always associated
with homemade pyrotechnics. In a few cases the vendors of these materials
have been made example out of by AHJs. Fine dark German aluminum and a few
others associated with flash compositions got the ball rolling. Flake is a
bad choice for propellant BTW due to rheology issues but has shown some
benefit in certain gas generator and weird hybrid configurations that I won’t
get into here. If your formulating classical HTPB composite propellants, I
wouldn’t waste your time with potassium perchlorate. High pressure exponents
and reduced C* are just two of its disadvantages. Start with proven AP based
formulas, test and learn to characterize before experimenting with more
problematic compounds.
If you are aware of these legalities, practice the hobby with safety being
the priority. Experimental propellants can be an enjoyable, safe and
rewarding activity. RRS, PRS, Tripoli et al have groups with experience in
this area and are a good place to start contacting for further information.
Watch all your digits, stick to the rules, ask for help from those with
experience and enjoy.
Hope this helps.
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Paul Mueller
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:50 PM
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Crickets as in.....total silence except for a few crickets....? Yeah, I was
wondering if maybe the questions were so dumb that no one bothered to answer
them because everyone knows the answers!
I'm not looking for legal advice, just anyone's experience with these and
where to go find some information (regulations, etc.). The US Munitions List
is such a catch-all that it's hard to know what's really verboten and what's
not (igniters are a good example).
John, thanks for the info re UN class of material. I'm vaguely familiar with
UN numbers but I'll research that more.
Bruce, I'm in Logan, UT.
"These are the kinds of questions people usually get paid to answer..."--I
guess that's true. A little soapboxing here--it's a shame our government
can't make its laws and regulations easy for its law-abiding citizens to find
and understand, especially since "ignorance of the law is no defense."
On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 2:01 AM, Monroe L. King Jr.
<monroe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
They are all good questions and I could give you some answers to them
BUT!
I'm not a legal entity
The rules can change or be different in your location depending on state
and county. There can be state and local laws that might surprise you.
I don't want to be responsible for the answers you have received.
I keep up with the legal bit for my team and it depends on quite a few
factors.
If your a serious rocketeer the best you can do really is cover your
launch site and transport to/from there.
There are several entities you need to be straight with for large
quantities of propellant.
It can be pretty complicated or it can be pretty simple depending on
what your doing.
It's safer for you to find out for yourself.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
From: rclague@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, September 21, 2015 9:28 pm
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
These are the kinds of questions people usually get paid to answer...
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Anthony Cesaroni" <acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sender: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 23:28:35
To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Crickets huh? :-/
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
<http://www.cesaronitech.com/> http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Paul Mueller
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 4:26 PM
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Solid propellant regulation questions
There has been a bit of discussion about casting solid motors at the launch
site to avoid legal complications with transport/storage. At our annual
Intercollegiate Rocket Engineeriing Competition, many teams transport
commercial and homemade solid motors to the event and we have left the
legal compliance up to them. I would like to be better informed about the
laws and regulations concerning this (and some related questions), so if
anyone can help answer any of these questions I would very much appreciate
it:
What are the requirements to purchase AP andor powdered aluminum for APCP
motors? Some web sites won't ship both to one buyer, others require ID
(faxed driver license) before selling. Some types of powdered aluminum (and
magnesium) seem to be restricted while others are not.
"Igniters" are on the US Munitions List, yet you can buy Estes igniters
over the counter and some e-matches online. Some e-matches require a LEUP,
but are there types that do not? By having a LEUP, does this “exempt” you
from the USML?
We can buy potassium nitrate over the counter here in Utah. Are there
restrictions in other states?
What are the requirements for shipping a homemade solid motor via USPS or
other carriers (UPS, FedEx, etc.)?
What are the requirements for carrying a homemade solid motor in a vehicle
in most states and across state lines (Federal)?
What additional restrictions are there for non-US persons? Are non-US
persons allowed to be in possession of a commercial solid motor? A homemade
solid motor? Igniters? Are they allowed to purchase ammonium perchlorate,
ammonium nitrate, potassium nitrate, or powdered aluminum or magnesium? If
so, are there other requirements?
