It's all part of the FUN of rocketry for me! I kinda like all the
legalese and once you get it all figured out it get's real easy! Until
they change something and you do have to stay on TOP of that.
I'm not sorry they can stop you crossing a state line with a homemade
motor over a few pounds. Sure it's not likely in the US a terrorist
would use a rocket but what if they did?
A Q impulse rocket could lob a fair size payload. I'm not saying an N is
that dangerous but you know you never know what some people might be up
too? That Fuel/AN bomb here in Texas was a really nasty one. It was made
here but you get the drift.
You want to do the real deal then do the real deal! It's got to be part
of the fun! Don't make it into a hassle make it part of being a real
rocketeer! With the right stuff! That should increase your pride in what
you are doing a great deal! (Just don't let that pride make you think
the FAA, DOT, BATF ect... have to do what your paperwork say's! If an
issue comes up be ready to punt and regroup at any time. Better to go
home and come back to play another day if things get screwy because of
misunderstandings in the field don't make this mistake!) You should do
fine if you make sure they understand you want to comply completely.
GO FOR IT!
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
From: Bill Claybaugh <wclaybaugh2@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, September 24, 2015 3:49 pm
To: "arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Paul:
If you are talking about commercial motors, then the person who bought the
motor(s) is the end user and does not need to placard; so doing invited the
state police to pull the vehicle over to check the paperwork....
WRT home built motors, it is less clear: the safe thing--literally--is to
cast on sight. Legal manufacture of solid rocket motors does not occur at
home: local (Fire Department); state (Fire Marshall, state police); and
inter-state (state police, DOT) all have a say in this...if your launch is
using home built motors that have been shipped across state lines it is all
but certain that laws have been broken by the time that motor gets to your
event.
Bill
Sent from my Commodore 64
On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:49 PM, Paul Mueller <paul.mueller.iii@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Thank you for the replies, everyone--it's a bit more complicated than I had
envisioned (DOT, BATFE, State Department, etc.). What a mess! Kind of makes
me glad I'm not a motor manufacturer!
I don't think I'll be able to figure out all the detailed rules, but this
seems like a reasonable approach to keep the highway patrol happy if
someone gets pulled over and first responders safe(r) in case of an
accident:
1) letter certifying that vehicle occupants (with names and affiliations)
are participants in the competition and are bringing a motor in their
vehicle
2) paper placards to tape to inside of windows on both sides
3) MSDS sheets as applicable
4) have the motor in similar packaging as when shipped by UPS, etc. (sealed
cardboard box with packing material, hazmat label)
I probably won't worry about teams bringing black powder or black powder
substitute, since it appears that quantities less than 50 lbs are not a
major concern for law enforcement...? After all, the public can buy it at
sporting goods stores without any ID, placards on their cars, etc.
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 3:45 AM, <rclague@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I learn something new every day. "Person," as defined in Appedix A of the
user's guide, would *not* include an amateur rocketeer transporting his or
her own propellant for his or her own use.
How does that relate to "interstate = in commerce" in the definition of
"commerce?" A: The construction of the regulations is almost always, "No
person shall <regulated activity> without <appropriate permission from
DOT>." Transporting hazardous material in commerce is a regulated
activity. So it may not lawfully be done by any "person." But "person" is
very specifically defined, and it does not include the case we are talking
about.
I withdraw my caveat to Anthony's post. Anthony, I apologize. I did not
intend to cast aspersions upon your expertise. Bruce, thanks for pushing
back. I learned something, and we all got better information out of it.
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: rclague@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 09:04:02 +0000
To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ReplyTo: rclague@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
It's on the page I cited earlier, in Appendix A Definitions, second
definition Commerce. I'm looking for the specific CFR section that drives
that line on the web page. (While that web page, coming as it does from
DOT, may be presumed to be authoritative, it is basically a user's guide
and does not have the force of law.)
BTW, 49 CFR 171.1(d)(6) contains the exemption for private individuals in
private vehicles.
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: Bruce Beck <bbeck7@xxxxxxxxx>
Sender: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:08:52 -0600
To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ReplyTo: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Please reference the part of the law that says crossing state lines means
you are in commerce.
On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:28 PM, <rclague@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The DOT site
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hazardous-materials/how-comply-federal-hazardous-materials-regulations
is surprisingly comprehensible. Note, if you try to read the whole thing
in one sitting, you will get discouraged. Take it in small bites.
One caveat to Anthony's reply: carrying something across a state line is
carrying it "in commerce," by definition. That's one of the reasons ERPS
flew KISS out of MTA instead of out of Black Rock.
One response to overregulation is to "just do it." Buy the placards, type
up the shipping papers, etc. This approach has much to recommend it. But.
It's always a good idea to have shipping papers: to write them, you need
answers to questions not every amateur thinks to ask. Having shipping
papers also goes a long way toward reassuring the highway patrol you know
what you're doing, if you should happen to get pulled over. "Yes,
officer, I'm so-and-so, with group such-and-such. We're on our way to
<where> with <nouns> to <verb>. We're actually exempt from the hazmat
regulations because <reason>, but there's good advice in there, which we
took. Fire extinguisher is over here, another one over here just in case,
face shields, gloves, non-sparking hammer, all natural fabrics... Here
are the shipping papers, manifest, MSDS, copy of the hazmat regulations
(if it's visibly indexed and cross-referenced, so much the better), we
have Chemtrex on speed dial, do you want us to give you a call when we
get there? It's no trouble." (If they don't know the shipping papers and
the manifest are the same thing, or that the MSDS is included, that's on
them.)
However. Placarding is not a "just do it." You are required to placard if
you are carrying something subject to the hazmat regs. And you are
prohibited from placarding if you are not carrying something subject to
the hazmat regs. You can't just post a placard and check off that box.
You have to actually sit down and figure out which side of the line
you're on. That can be difficult, because the regs weren't written for
amateurs carrying their own rocket propellant.
If you're subject to placard requirements, you're also subject to several
other requirements. Complying with the former creates the impression that
you're subject to the latter, and some of the latter may be out your
price range. Also, a placard on a private vehicle will get a highway
patrolman's attention right away. ERPS didn't placard, and if anyone got
pulled over, they didn't tell me about it.
If you don't placard, and you get pulled over, they may ask why you
didn't placard. "That's a good idea, and we wanted to, but we're not
allowed to. It's here in Part 172..."
Oh, another requirement you won't have to meet but it's a good idea:
training documentation. Print the MSDS and any handling instructions you
might have, have a meeting, and walk through them. Write down everyone's
name, what you talked about, and the date. You've just documented a
training session. If you're working out of someone's book, you can call
it a textbook and do the same thing.
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: "Anthony Cesaroni" <acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sender: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:28:40 -0400
To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ReplyTo: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Paul,
Your questions aren’t dumb. It’s just they require a bit of typing to
answer reasonably accurately. My comments below cover a very tiny bit of
an answer but I’ll try.
I will tell you that shipping homemade propellants/explosives of any kind
by commercial carrier is illegal. You must have a DOT classification, EX
number and shipping specification in order to do so. The only exception
is for small quantities to be shipped under specific conditions to the
DOT or one of its accredited labs for classification. This unless they
are willing to accept associative classification by formula and
configuration submission. That is getting harder to do these days and the
best you may expect is class 1.3 which is a real expensive proposition in
terms of shipping costs. It doesn’t matter if it’s an M motor or a
sounding rocket, it’s a dedicated truck with a lot of provisos and fuel
surcharges. It costs $15K to ship a motor from my main plant to WSMR or
KSC etc. for example so we usually piggyback the run to help reduce
costs. If your motors are small and you’ve gone through all these steps,
you can apply for a DOT special permit or SP number. This allows you to
ship as class 1.4 for example but only under strict conditions and
carrier limitations. These only have basis in the U.S. so don’t even
consider export using them. One unusual SP is 8451, otherwise known as
the pipe bomb exemption. It allows you to ship up to 25 grams of
unclassified material in a threaded closed pressure rated 3” pipe packed
in a UN spec. plywood case that weighs about 75 pounds and you’ll need a
good reason to do so. The theory is that 25 grams of PETN won’t defeat it
so most other explosives shouldn’t. I’m not sure if it’s been tested with
Hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane (CL20) or if they would allow it.
You can only legally transport “unregulated”, homemade, APCP that you
have made yourself on a public highway in your private vehicle. You
cannot sell it or have a commercial carrier transport it otherwise it is
considered “in commerce” and you can get in very deep trouble if you get
caught doing so. Then there are also potential liability, local AHJ, knee
jerk law enforcement, environmental and legal issues that I won’t even
begin to try and explain here, particularly if something goes wrong. The
technically illiterate media will make matters even worse.
Regarding initiators and ignitors. There are BATF “unregulated” fuse
heads commercially available. They still have a shipping classification
and it’s generally 1.4S. The reason that some are unregulated is they
consist of a thermite based energetic composition that is not on the ATF
explosives list. Anything that falls under the USML is under the
jurisdiction of the DDTC at the state department. They have no sense of
humor and the inside moto is “bring us a man, we will find the crime”. If
it’s dual use, you have the department of commerce to worry about. In
both cases this general applies if you are manufacturing or providing
services for the military but most importantly, if you are exporting any
form of technology that falls under their jurisdiction. They can make
rules up as they go along BTW and you don’t have to physically export the
technology to get busted. Even telling or showing an non-US person
anything ITAR, USML, MTCR technical data, it’s considered an export and
can you busted. A U.S. person is a U.S. citizen, U.S. permanent resident
or lawfully admitted refugee.
A lot of propellant precursor chemicals have got a bad name and receive a
lot of scrutiny due some end user, bad actors, often but not always
associated with homemade pyrotechnics. In a few cases the vendors of
these materials have been made example out of by AHJs. Fine dark German
aluminum and a few others associated with flash compositions got the ball
rolling. Flake is a bad choice for propellant BTW due to rheology issues
but has shown some benefit in certain gas generator and weird hybrid
configurations that I won’t get into here. If your formulating classical
HTPB composite propellants, I wouldn’t waste your time with potassium
perchlorate. High pressure exponents and reduced C* are just two of its
disadvantages. Start with proven AP based formulas, test and learn to
characterize before experimenting with more problematic compounds.
If you are aware of these legalities, practice the hobby with safety
being the priority. Experimental propellants can be an enjoyable, safe
and rewarding activity. RRS, PRS, Tripoli et al have groups with
experience in this area and are a good place to start contacting for
further information. Watch all your digits, stick to the rules, ask for
help from those with experience and enjoy.
Hope this helps.
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Paul Mueller
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:50 PM
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Crickets as in.....total silence except for a few crickets....? Yeah, I
was wondering if maybe the questions were so dumb that no one bothered to
answer them because everyone knows the answers!
I'm not looking for legal advice, just anyone's experience with these and
where to go find some information (regulations, etc.). The US Munitions
List is such a catch-all that it's hard to know what's really verboten
and what's not (igniters are a good example).
John, thanks for the info re UN class of material. I'm vaguely familiar
with UN numbers but I'll research that more.
Bruce, I'm in Logan, UT.
"These are the kinds of questions people usually get paid to
answer..."--I guess that's true. A little soapboxing here--it's a shame
our government can't make its laws and regulations easy for its
law-abiding citizens to find and understand, especially since "ignorance
of the law is no defense."
On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 2:01 AM, Monroe L. King Jr.
<monroe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
They are all good questions and I could give you some answers to them
BUT!
I'm not a legal entity
The rules can change or be different in your location depending on state
and county. There can be state and local laws that might surprise you.
I don't want to be responsible for the answers you have received.
I keep up with the legal bit for my team and it depends on quite a few
factors.
If your a serious rocketeer the best you can do really is cover your
launch site and transport to/from there.
There are several entities you need to be straight with for large
quantities of propellant.
It can be pretty complicated or it can be pretty simple depending on
what your doing.
It's safer for you to find out for yourself.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
From: rclague@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, September 21, 2015 9:28 pm
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
These are the kinds of questions people usually get paid to answer...
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Anthony Cesaroni" <acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sender: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 23:28:35
To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Crickets huh? :-/
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
<http://www.cesaronitech.com/> http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul Mueller
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 4:26 PM
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Solid propellant regulation questions
There has been a bit of discussion about casting solid motors at the
launch site to avoid legal complications with transport/storage. At our
annual Intercollegiate Rocket Engineeriing Competition, many teams
transport commercial and homemade solid motors to the event and we have
left the legal compliance up to them. I would like to be better
informed about the laws and regulations concerning this (and some
related questions), so if anyone can help answer any of these questions
I would very much appreciate it:
What are the requirements to purchase AP andor powdered aluminum for
APCP motors? Some web sites won't ship both to one buyer, others
require ID (faxed driver license) before selling. Some types of
powdered aluminum (and magnesium) seem to be restricted while others
are not.
"Igniters" are on the US Munitions List, yet you can buy Estes igniters
over the counter and some e-matches online. Some e-matches require a
LEUP, but are there types that do not? By having a LEUP, does this
“exempt” you from the USML?
We can buy potassium nitrate over the counter here in Utah. Are there
restrictions in other states?
What are the requirements for shipping a homemade solid motor via USPS
or other carriers (UPS, FedEx, etc.)?
What are the requirements for carrying a homemade solid motor in a
vehicle in most states and across state lines (Federal)?
What additional restrictions are there for non-US persons? Are non-US
persons allowed to be in possession of a commercial solid motor? A
homemade solid motor? Igniters? Are they allowed to purchase ammonium
perchlorate, ammonium nitrate, potassium nitrate, or powdered aluminum
or magnesium? If so, are there other requirements?
