I hear shipping as 'Model Aircraft Parts' works...
Edward
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Anthony Cesaroni <acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
The material would not be in commerce if you are following the rules and
as an end user, you are exempt from DOT commercial transportation
requirements. DO NOT placard. It is not required and you may only attract
attention to yourself and possibly complicate matters unnecessarily. The
safest and preferred method when producing class 1 APCP materials for
experimental end use, is to produce and use them on site and not transport
them if possible.
Best.
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
*From:* arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
*On Behalf Of *Paul Mueller
*Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2015 3:49 PM
*To:* arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Thank you for the replies, everyone--it's a bit more complicated than I
had envisioned (DOT, BATFE, State Department, etc.). What a mess! Kind of
makes me glad I'm not a motor manufacturer!
I don't think I'll be able to figure out all the detailed rules, but this
seems like a reasonable approach to keep the highway patrol happy if
someone gets pulled over and first responders safe(r) in case of an
accident:
1) letter certifying that vehicle occupants (with names and affiliations)
are participants in the competition and are bringing a motor in their
vehicle
2) paper placards to tape to inside of windows on both sides
3) MSDS sheets as applicable
4) have the motor in similar packaging as when shipped by UPS, etc.
(sealed cardboard box with packing material, hazmat label)
I probably won't worry about teams bringing black powder or black powder
substitute, since it appears that quantities less than 50 lbs are not a
major concern for law enforcement...? After all, the public can buy it at
sporting goods stores without any ID, placards on their cars, etc.
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 3:45 AM, <rclague@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I learn something new every day. "Person," as defined in Appedix A of the
user's guide, would *not* include an amateur rocketeer transporting his or
her own propellant for his or her own use.
How does that relate to "interstate = in commerce" in the definition of
"commerce?" A: The construction of the regulations is almost always, "No
person shall <regulated activity> without <appropriate permission from
DOT>." Transporting hazardous material in commerce is a regulated activity.
So it may not lawfully be done by any "person." But "person" is very
specifically defined, and it does not include the case we are talking about.
I withdraw my caveat to Anthony's post. Anthony, I apologize. I did not
intend to cast aspersions upon your expertise. Bruce, thanks for pushing
back. I learned something, and we all got better information out of it.
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
------------------------------
*From: *rclague@xxxxxxxxx
*Date: *Wed, 23 Sep 2015 09:04:02 +0000
*To: *<arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*ReplyTo: *rclague@xxxxxxxxx
*Subject: *Re: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
It's on the page I cited earlier, in Appendix A Definitions, second
definition Commerce. I'm looking for the specific CFR section that drives
that line on the web page. (While that web page, coming as it does from
DOT, may be presumed to be authoritative, it is basically a user's guide
and does not have the force of law.)
BTW, 49 CFR 171.1(d)(6) contains the exemption for private individuals in
private vehicles.
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
------------------------------
*From: *Bruce Beck <bbeck7@xxxxxxxxx>
*Sender: *arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Date: *Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:08:52 -0600
*To: *<arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*ReplyTo: *arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject: *[AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Please reference the part of the law that says crossing state lines means
you are in commerce.
On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 10:28 PM, <rclague@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The DOT site
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hazardous-materials/how-comply-federal-hazardous-materials-regulations
is surprisingly comprehensible. Note, if you try to read the whole thing in
one sitting, you will get discouraged. Take it in small bites.
One caveat to Anthony's reply: carrying something across a state line is
carrying it "in commerce," by definition. That's one of the reasons ERPS
flew KISS out of MTA instead of out of Black Rock.
One response to overregulation is to "just do it." Buy the placards, type
up the shipping papers, etc. This approach has much to recommend it. But.
It's always a good idea to have shipping papers: to write them, you need
answers to questions not every amateur thinks to ask. Having shipping
papers also goes a long way toward reassuring the highway patrol you know
what you're doing, if you should happen to get pulled over. "Yes, officer,
I'm so-and-so, with group such-and-such. We're on our way to <where> with
<nouns> to <verb>. We're actually exempt from the hazmat regulations
because <reason>, but there's good advice in there, which we took. Fire
extinguisher is over here, another one over here just in case, face
shields, gloves, non-sparking hammer, all natural fabrics... Here are the
shipping papers, manifest, MSDS, copy of the hazmat regulations (if it's
visibly indexed and cross-referenced, so much the better), we have Chemtrex
on speed dial, do you want us to give you a call when we get there? It's no
trouble." (If they don't know the shipping papers and the manifest are the
same thing, or that the MSDS is included, that's on them.)
However. Placarding is not a "just do it." You are required to placard if
you are carrying something subject to the hazmat regs. And you are
prohibited from placarding if you are not carrying something subject to the
hazmat regs. You can't just post a placard and check off that box. You have
to actually sit down and figure out which side of the line you're on. That
can be difficult, because the regs weren't written for amateurs carrying
their own rocket propellant.
If you're subject to placard requirements, you're also subject to several
other requirements. Complying with the former creates the impression that
you're subject to the latter, and some of the latter may be out your price
range. Also, a placard on a private vehicle will get a highway patrolman's
attention right away. ERPS didn't placard, and if anyone got pulled over,
they didn't tell me about it.
If you don't placard, and you get pulled over, they may ask why you didn't
placard. "That's a good idea, and we wanted to, but we're not allowed to.
It's here in Part 172..."
Oh, another requirement you won't have to meet but it's a good idea:
training documentation. Print the MSDS and any handling instructions you
might have, have a meeting, and walk through them. Write down everyone's
name, what you talked about, and the date. You've just documented a
training session. If you're working out of someone's book, you can call it
a textbook and do the same thing.
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
------------------------------
*From: *"Anthony Cesaroni" <acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sender: *arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Date: *Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:28:40 -0400
*To: *<arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*ReplyTo: *arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject: *[AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Paul,
Your questions aren’t dumb. It’s just they require a bit of typing to
answer reasonably accurately. My comments below cover a very tiny bit of an
answer but I’ll try.
I will tell you that shipping homemade propellants/explosives of any kind
by commercial carrier is illegal. You must have a DOT classification, EX
number and shipping specification in order to do so. The only exception is
for small quantities to be shipped under specific conditions to the DOT or
one of its accredited labs for classification. This unless they are willing
to accept associative classification by formula and configuration
submission. That is getting harder to do these days and the best you may
expect is class 1.3 which is a real expensive proposition in terms of
shipping costs. It doesn’t matter if it’s an M motor or a sounding rocket,
it’s a dedicated truck with a lot of provisos and fuel surcharges. It costs
$15K to ship a motor from my main plant to WSMR or KSC etc. for example so
we usually piggyback the run to help reduce costs. If your motors are small
and you’ve gone through all these steps, you can apply for a DOT special
permit or SP number. This allows you to ship as class 1.4 for example but
only under strict conditions and carrier limitations. These only have basis
in the U.S. so don’t even consider export using them. One unusual SP is
8451, otherwise known as the pipe bomb exemption. It allows you to ship up
to 25 grams of unclassified material in a threaded closed pressure rated 3”
pipe packed in a UN spec. plywood case that weighs about 75 pounds and
you’ll need a good reason to do so. The theory is that 25 grams of PETN
won’t defeat it so most other explosives shouldn’t. I’m not sure if it’s
been tested with Hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane (CL20) or if they would
allow it.
You can only legally transport “unregulated”, homemade, APCP that you have
made yourself on a public highway in your private vehicle. You cannot sell
it or have a commercial carrier transport it otherwise it is considered “in
commerce” and you can get in very deep trouble if you get caught doing so.
Then there are also potential liability, local AHJ, knee jerk law
enforcement, environmental and legal issues that I won’t even begin to try
and explain here, particularly if something goes wrong. The technically
illiterate media will make matters even worse.
Regarding initiators and ignitors. There are BATF “unregulated” fuse
heads commercially available. They still have a shipping classification and
it’s generally 1.4S. The reason that some are unregulated is they consist
of a thermite based energetic composition that is not on the ATF explosives
list. Anything that falls under the USML is under the jurisdiction of the
DDTC at the state department. They have no sense of humor and the inside
moto is “bring us a man, we will find the crime”. If it’s dual use, you
have the department of commerce to worry about. In both cases this general
applies if you are manufacturing or providing services for the military but
most importantly, if you are exporting any form of technology that falls
under their jurisdiction. They can make rules up as they go along BTW and
you don’t have to physically export the technology to get busted. Even
telling or showing an non-US person anything ITAR, USML, MTCR technical
data, it’s considered an export and can you busted. A U.S. person is a U.S.
citizen, U.S. permanent resident or lawfully admitted refugee.
A lot of propellant precursor chemicals have got a bad name and receive a
lot of scrutiny due some end user, bad actors, often but not always
associated with homemade pyrotechnics. In a few cases the vendors of these
materials have been made example out of by AHJs. Fine dark German aluminum
and a few others associated with flash compositions got the ball rolling.
Flake is a bad choice for propellant BTW due to rheology issues but has
shown some benefit in certain gas generator and weird hybrid configurations
that I won’t get into here. If your formulating classical HTPB composite
propellants, I wouldn’t waste your time with potassium perchlorate. High
pressure exponents and reduced C* are just two of its disadvantages. Start
with proven AP based formulas, test and learn to characterize before
experimenting with more problematic compounds.
If you are aware of these legalities, practice the hobby with safety being
the priority. Experimental propellants can be an enjoyable, safe and
rewarding activity. RRS, PRS, Tripoli et al have groups with experience in
this area and are a good place to start contacting for further information.
Watch all your digits, stick to the rules, ask for help from those with
experience and enjoy.
Hope this helps.
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
*From:* arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
*On Behalf Of *Paul Mueller
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:50 PM
*To:* arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Crickets as in.....total silence except for a few crickets....? Yeah, I
was wondering if maybe the questions were so dumb that no one bothered to
answer them because everyone knows the answers!
I'm not looking for legal advice, just anyone's experience with these and
where to go find some information (regulations, etc.). The US Munitions
List is such a catch-all that it's hard to know what's really verboten and
what's not (igniters are a good example).
John, thanks for the info re UN class of material. I'm vaguely familiar
with UN numbers but I'll research that more.
Bruce, I'm in Logan, UT.
"These are the kinds of questions people usually get paid to answer..."--I
guess that's true. A little soapboxing here--it's a shame our government
can't make its laws and regulations easy for its law-abiding citizens to
find and understand, especially since "ignorance of the law is no defense."
On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 2:01 AM, Monroe L. King Jr. <
monroe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
They are all good questions and I could give you some answers to them
BUT!
I'm not a legal entity
The rules can change or be different in your location depending on state
and county. There can be state and local laws that might surprise you.
I don't want to be responsible for the answers you have received.
I keep up with the legal bit for my team and it depends on quite a few
factors.
If your a serious rocketeer the best you can do really is cover your
launch site and transport to/from there.
There are several entities you need to be straight with for large
quantities of propellant.
It can be pretty complicated or it can be pretty simple depending on
what your doing.
It's safer for you to find out for yourself.
-------- Original Message --------On Behalf Of Paul Mueller
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
From: rclague@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, September 21, 2015 9:28 pm
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
These are the kinds of questions people usually get paid to answer...
-R
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Anthony Cesaroni" <acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sender: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 23:28:35
To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Solid propellant regulation questions
Crickets huh? :-/
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
<http://www.cesaronitech.com/> http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 4:26 PM
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Solid propellant regulation questions
launch site to avoid legal complications with transport/storage. At our
There has been a bit of discussion about casting solid motors at the
annual Intercollegiate Rocket Engineeriing Competition, many teams
transport commercial and homemade solid motors to the event and we have
left the legal compliance up to them. I would like to be better informed
about the laws and regulations concerning this (and some related
questions), so if anyone can help answer any of these questions I would
very much appreciate it:
APCP motors? Some web sites won't ship both to one buyer, others require ID
What are the requirements to purchase AP andor powdered aluminum for
(faxed driver license) before selling. Some types of powdered aluminum (and
magnesium) seem to be restricted while others are not.
over the counter and some e-matches online. Some e-matches require a LEUP,
"Igniters" are on the US Munitions List, yet you can buy Estes igniters
but are there types that do not? By having a LEUP, does this “exempt” you
from the USML?
restrictions in other states?
We can buy potassium nitrate over the counter here in Utah. Are there
or other carriers (UPS, FedEx, etc.)?
What are the requirements for shipping a homemade solid motor via USPS
vehicle in most states and across state lines (Federal)?
What are the requirements for carrying a homemade solid motor in a
persons allowed to be in possession of a commercial solid motor? A homemade
What additional restrictions are there for non-US persons? Are non-US
solid motor? Igniters? Are they allowed to purchase ammonium perchlorate,
ammonium nitrate, potassium nitrate, or powdered aluminum or magnesium? If
so, are there other requirements?
