[access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0
- From: "Dj Paddy" <mygroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:31:15 -0000
Hi Brian.
I am somewhat more confident and computer literate than alot of blind and
visually impaired people. This is a very fair point.
I do have my moments though. I'm flowndering trying to learn to use Window
Eyes, in addition to doing a degree in computer science. Which alot of my
modules this semester happen to be quite visual.
I get stressed out as much as anyone to the point that I have tension
headaches and cant' be bothered with my PC when I get home. Or flick on
Jaws because it's comfortable and I don't at that time have the patience to
fafth with Window Eye's and I just want to get done what I want to get done
after a long hard day.
I know too well about training. Who would train me with Window Eye's?
Alot of the training is foundational or intermediate computing in
conjunction with Window Eye's.
I trained a lady two years back with Jaws. Who had went through three so
called trainers before her number was passed on to me through her FE
College.
I am not a certified BCAB trainer. Simply because I dont' have the cash to
go and train for that cert.
However, I gave this lady what many others didn't. I listened to what she
wanted to know and structured my class around that. I listened to her about
the mess people had given her and was shocked when nobody had even gave her
a simple text file with easy to remember steps for perform various tasks in
it, or even told how how to tell where abouts she was located in Windows.
Your points about Mac Vs Windows are very true. And Linux is even truer. I
believe it's part market share and part sophistication of the operating
systems core components.
On the Jaws version 8 front.
I saw it's feature list and felt anger towards people who are given no
choice int he screen reader market but to have Jaws. Who unwittingly are
being hand held through their computer use. Yes they are getting the job
done but at a price. I see Jaws as a dying product, who's code is getting
bigger and bulkier with patch over patch. Anyone remember Hal?
Dolphin wisely re-wrote their software from scratch and it's clawing it's
way back.
I believe that Jaws will no longer be in production in about ten years time
and I feel anger and sorrow for alot of people who will be left in the
lurch.
From the little experience I've had with Window Eye's users Vs Jaws users it
appears they are generally more compitent in use of their computer and in
perticular new applications. They have a less reliance on scripts. Which
are powerful but which alot of times hide the user from true use of their
computer. This can cause bad habit's to form and can leave them looking at
the same screen very differently to a sighted peer. Awkward and frustrating
quite alot of the time.
A long standing Jaws script that I truly believe is awful is it's system
tray call. I do not know the in's and outs of how this works but I'm
assuming it's putting it's own representation of the system tray into a
virtual buffer. It misses out quite a few icons in the system tray and is
not updated as the system tray is updated. This is one of the reasons why
it shows up alot quicker than the Window Eye's system tray. Window Eye's
labels each graphic in th esystem tray then displays them ina Window.
Anyone right now try a demo of Window Eye's and you'll see at least one more
icon in your system tray than you did with Jaws.
This is a small point but a fundemental one.
I set up a list called Jaws Aholics. A tongue in cheek name for a list
aimed at people trying to switch from Jaws to Windoweye's but who had common
problems.
I had a wealth of computer problems myself and have been kept busy by
University and the like so haven't been able to give the list as much
attention as I might have a year or so back.
There was lots of problems that kept appearing on their that seemed common
to all.
I've would like to have included a first thoughts email I wrote to the list
below to demonstrate some of my own and others initial experiences with
Window Eye's.
......Well I wanted to include it but I seemed to have deleted it!
Carol or Ray or anyone else that has this could you please forward it back
to me?
Sorry about that,
Barry
Ôà
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Booth" <bp.booth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:19 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0
Hi Barry,
Your point on operating systems being a slightly different animal is well
made, though I dare say a lot of Apple Mac users would strongly disagree
with you. I know that because Windows is by far the most used OS it is a
much greater target for hackers, but I think most people would agree that
from a purely security point of view, Mac OS is way ahead.
I also agree with your point about self-education, but I feel therein lies
the crux of the problem.
Most blind people, myself included, are on a fixed and relatively low
income. Once we've spent what to us is a great deal of money on a screen
reader, we can't afford, nor get reasonable access to, the training needed
to get the most out of what is essentially an extremely powerful piece of
software. So we sit down and RTFM and get by the best we can. Commendably,
some people reach a very high level of competence, but I suspect the
majority are left floundering.
I know from some of the contributions that you have made to this list that
this is not the case for you, and I know that you are indeed very computer
savvy, but sadly, without quality training, this is not true for the
majority.
Whenever a new version of JAWS is released, this list and the JAWS UK list
is flooded with complaints. The majority of these are sorted by some very
good and competent people, who advise the people what changes to make in
JAWS to sort the problem. What I'm trying to say here is that a lot of the
time, JAWS is not the problem, but a lack of understanding for the reasons
outlined above.
If your opinion of JAWS 8 is that it is crap, then I sincerely respect that.
I haven't downloaded it yet, so can't comment. And I have the utmost respect
and admiration for any blind person trying to get by in what is basically a
graphical environment which was basically designed to exclude them. Which is
probably why I fiercely - and probably sometimes over-zealously - jump to
the defence of products like JAWS, which at least gives us all a good level
of access to this technology.
Apologies to all for such a long post.
God bless FS, you know where to send the cheque!
Regards,
Brian.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dj Paddy" <mygroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:41 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0
> You're never going to get an OS without bugs.
>
> XP was a disaster when it was released and right up to SP2. I think
> Microsoft would even admit they messed up.
>
> Vista has had a lot more work done to it, and it has been tested more at
> hacker conventions.
>
> It's not always the manufacturers fault an OS is unstable btw. What about
> all the people who don't use AV or keep it up to date, firewalls, don't
> implament privacy policy's don't educate themselves beyond point and click
> and chat rooms?
>
> Ðà
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Booth" <bp.booth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 10:48 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0
>
>
> Hi Barry,
>
> How old is Windows XP now? How many critical updates are Microsoft still
> putting out each month?
>
> Should we have stayed with Windows 98 till all the bugs were ironed out?
>
> Seems to me like FS is doing quite a good job by comparison, and probably
> on
> about a hundredth of the budget.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dj Paddy" <mygroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:25 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0
>
>
>> Vista will be out January 30.
>>
>> The Gold Disc was released on November 8, and the MSDN guys and Corporate
>> customers will have it if not now then by the end of this month.
>>
>> The main reason January 30 is set for consumers is because of driver
>> compatibilitys with current hardware. To give the hardware vendors a
>> window
>> to update their drivers.
>>
>> My reason for calling it a disaster is that it's not moving forward.
>> It's
>> not adding any real, everyday functionality, I didnt' see anything about
>> Office 2007, SAPI Alia's?
>>
>> coem on. Able to switch the voice ont he fly when reading text?
>>
>> That's not screen and application access, that's just a bit of fancy
>> reading
>> scripting.
>>
>> I to was once int he comfort zone of Jaws and occasionally go back. Old
>> habits die hard.
>>
>> Dj Paddy
>> Ôà
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "James O'Dell" <jamesodell@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 5:38 PM
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0
>>
>>
>> Fs haven't committed to making this upgrade vista-compatible, but then at
>> the moment we don't know when vista will be released yet, so that seems
>> reasonable enough to me. I wonder what level of access to Vista WE users
>> will get for what they have already paid? JAWS has done a great job for
>> me
>> for the last nine years, I agree that WE is catching up, and is probably
>> ahead in terms of its user interface being far simpler etc, but I see no
>> reason for calling the latest version of JAWS a "disaster".
>>
>> ali, what specific problems are you having with JAWS 8?
>>
>> James
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dj Paddy" <mygroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 4:30 PM
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0
>>
>>
>>> Windoweye's is definitly a different animal and I get frustrated when i
>>> don't know how to perform various reading tasks and I just need to get
>>> the
>>> job done.
>>>
>>> However, i feel Windoweye's is the wisest route to go.
>>>
>>> I will spare you all a rant on Jaws. My comments speak for themselves
>>> on
>>> my
>>> previous message.
>>>
>>> Dj paddy
>>> Ôà
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Andrew Hodgson" <andrew@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 4:23 PM
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I like most people am staying away from Jaws 8 and am migrating to
>>> WindowEyes as much as possible. I am still falling back to the jaws
>>> keystrokes quite a bit, but am getting there.
>>>
>>> Why they released version 8 days after releasing the 7.10 update was a
>>> mystery - they had precious time to do more tests on it, plus make
>>> version
>>> 8
>>> a Vista compatible upgrade!
>>>
>>> Andrew.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Dj Paddy
>>> Sent: Mon 20/11/2006 16:20
>>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0
>>>
>>> This is shocking.
>>>
>>> I've just been reading the latest disaster and can not believe somebody
>>> is
>>> honestly going to pay for this.
>>>
>>> This thing isn't even supporting Vista for goodness sake!
>>>
>>> And what is all that SAPI Alia's stuff about in say all?
>>>
>>> OMG, that's a new feature?
>>>
>>> More and more nonsense!
>>>
>>> I'm raging because, I like many wasted my money on this rubbish for
>>> years!
>>>
>>> I'm disgusted because, many still will! Also rehab agency's and that
>>> whole
>>> area will thrust this product on unsuspecting souls.
>>>
>>> Note: this is a consumers viewpoint and I think it's utter pooh.
>>> Barry
>>> Ôà
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew, for details of JAWS 8 go to:
>>>
>>> http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_jaws80fea.asp#OS
>>>
>>> From Ray
>>> I can be contacted off-list at:
>>> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf
>>> Of andrew shipp
>>>
>>> Hi All, What are the benefits of upgrading to Jaws V 8.0?
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Andrew Shipp
>>>
>>> Located Northampton Northamptonshire UK
>>>
>>> Home phone...+44]0,1604 517007
>>>
>>> Mobile 07983598287
>>> Skype name...andyshipp55
>>>
>>> Ham callsign M 0 C E G
>>> Echolink node 220344
>>>
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