Hi Brian. I am somewhat more confident and computer literate than alot of blind and visually impaired people. This is a very fair point. I do have my moments though. I'm flowndering trying to learn to use Window Eyes, in addition to doing a degree in computer science. Which alot of my modules this semester happen to be quite visual. I get stressed out as much as anyone to the point that I have tension headaches and cant' be bothered with my PC when I get home. Or flick on Jaws because it's comfortable and I don't at that time have the patience to fafth with Window Eye's and I just want to get done what I want to get done after a long hard day. I know too well about training. Who would train me with Window Eye's? Alot of the training is foundational or intermediate computing in conjunction with Window Eye's. I trained a lady two years back with Jaws. Who had went through three so called trainers before her number was passed on to me through her FE College. I am not a certified BCAB trainer. Simply because I dont' have the cash to go and train for that cert. However, I gave this lady what many others didn't. I listened to what she wanted to know and structured my class around that. I listened to her about the mess people had given her and was shocked when nobody had even gave her a simple text file with easy to remember steps for perform various tasks in it, or even told how how to tell where abouts she was located in Windows. Your points about Mac Vs Windows are very true. And Linux is even truer. I believe it's part market share and part sophistication of the operating systems core components. On the Jaws version 8 front. I saw it's feature list and felt anger towards people who are given no choice int he screen reader market but to have Jaws. Who unwittingly are being hand held through their computer use. Yes they are getting the job done but at a price. I see Jaws as a dying product, who's code is getting bigger and bulkier with patch over patch. Anyone remember Hal? Dolphin wisely re-wrote their software from scratch and it's clawing it's way back. I believe that Jaws will no longer be in production in about ten years time and I feel anger and sorrow for alot of people who will be left in the lurch. From the little experience I've had with Window Eye's users Vs Jaws users it appears they are generally more compitent in use of their computer and in perticular new applications. They have a less reliance on scripts. Which are powerful but which alot of times hide the user from true use of their computer. This can cause bad habit's to form and can leave them looking at the same screen very differently to a sighted peer. Awkward and frustrating quite alot of the time. A long standing Jaws script that I truly believe is awful is it's system tray call. I do not know the in's and outs of how this works but I'm assuming it's putting it's own representation of the system tray into a virtual buffer. It misses out quite a few icons in the system tray and is not updated as the system tray is updated. This is one of the reasons why it shows up alot quicker than the Window Eye's system tray. Window Eye's labels each graphic in th esystem tray then displays them ina Window. Anyone right now try a demo of Window Eye's and you'll see at least one more icon in your system tray than you did with Jaws. This is a small point but a fundemental one. I set up a list called Jaws Aholics. A tongue in cheek name for a list aimed at people trying to switch from Jaws to Windoweye's but who had common problems. I had a wealth of computer problems myself and have been kept busy by University and the like so haven't been able to give the list as much attention as I might have a year or so back. There was lots of problems that kept appearing on their that seemed common to all. I've would like to have included a first thoughts email I wrote to the list below to demonstrate some of my own and others initial experiences with Window Eye's. ......Well I wanted to include it but I seemed to have deleted it! Carol or Ray or anyone else that has this could you please forward it back to me? Sorry about that, Barry Ôà ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Booth" <bp.booth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:19 PM Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0 Hi Barry, Your point on operating systems being a slightly different animal is well made, though I dare say a lot of Apple Mac users would strongly disagree with you. I know that because Windows is by far the most used OS it is a much greater target for hackers, but I think most people would agree that from a purely security point of view, Mac OS is way ahead. I also agree with your point about self-education, but I feel therein lies the crux of the problem. Most blind people, myself included, are on a fixed and relatively low income. Once we've spent what to us is a great deal of money on a screen reader, we can't afford, nor get reasonable access to, the training needed to get the most out of what is essentially an extremely powerful piece of software. So we sit down and RTFM and get by the best we can. Commendably, some people reach a very high level of competence, but I suspect the majority are left floundering. I know from some of the contributions that you have made to this list that this is not the case for you, and I know that you are indeed very computer savvy, but sadly, without quality training, this is not true for the majority. Whenever a new version of JAWS is released, this list and the JAWS UK list is flooded with complaints. The majority of these are sorted by some very good and competent people, who advise the people what changes to make in JAWS to sort the problem. What I'm trying to say here is that a lot of the time, JAWS is not the problem, but a lack of understanding for the reasons outlined above. If your opinion of JAWS 8 is that it is crap, then I sincerely respect that. I haven't downloaded it yet, so can't comment. And I have the utmost respect and admiration for any blind person trying to get by in what is basically a graphical environment which was basically designed to exclude them. Which is probably why I fiercely - and probably sometimes over-zealously - jump to the defence of products like JAWS, which at least gives us all a good level of access to this technology. Apologies to all for such a long post. God bless FS, you know where to send the cheque! Regards, Brian. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dj Paddy" <mygroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0 > You're never going to get an OS without bugs. > > XP was a disaster when it was released and right up to SP2. I think > Microsoft would even admit they messed up. > > Vista has had a lot more work done to it, and it has been tested more at > hacker conventions. > > It's not always the manufacturers fault an OS is unstable btw. What about > all the people who don't use AV or keep it up to date, firewalls, don't > implament privacy policy's don't educate themselves beyond point and click > and chat rooms? > > Ðà > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Booth" <bp.booth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 10:48 PM > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0 > > > Hi Barry, > > How old is Windows XP now? How many critical updates are Microsoft still > putting out each month? > > Should we have stayed with Windows 98 till all the bugs were ironed out? > > Seems to me like FS is doing quite a good job by comparison, and probably > on > about a hundredth of the budget. > > Regards, > > Brian. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dj Paddy" <mygroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:25 PM > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0 > > >> Vista will be out January 30. >> >> The Gold Disc was released on November 8, and the MSDN guys and Corporate >> customers will have it if not now then by the end of this month. >> >> The main reason January 30 is set for consumers is because of driver >> compatibilitys with current hardware. To give the hardware vendors a >> window >> to update their drivers. >> >> My reason for calling it a disaster is that it's not moving forward. >> It's >> not adding any real, everyday functionality, I didnt' see anything about >> Office 2007, SAPI Alia's? >> >> coem on. Able to switch the voice ont he fly when reading text? >> >> That's not screen and application access, that's just a bit of fancy >> reading >> scripting. >> >> I to was once int he comfort zone of Jaws and occasionally go back. Old >> habits die hard. >> >> Dj Paddy >> Ôà >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James O'Dell" <jamesodell@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 5:38 PM >> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0 >> >> >> Fs haven't committed to making this upgrade vista-compatible, but then at >> the moment we don't know when vista will be released yet, so that seems >> reasonable enough to me. I wonder what level of access to Vista WE users >> will get for what they have already paid? JAWS has done a great job for >> me >> for the last nine years, I agree that WE is catching up, and is probably >> ahead in terms of its user interface being far simpler etc, but I see no >> reason for calling the latest version of JAWS a "disaster". >> >> ali, what specific problems are you having with JAWS 8? >> >> James >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dj Paddy" <mygroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 4:30 PM >> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0 >> >> >>> Windoweye's is definitly a different animal and I get frustrated when i >>> don't know how to perform various reading tasks and I just need to get >>> the >>> job done. >>> >>> However, i feel Windoweye's is the wisest route to go. >>> >>> I will spare you all a rant on Jaws. My comments speak for themselves >>> on >>> my >>> previous message. >>> >>> Dj paddy >>> Ôà >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Andrew Hodgson" <andrew@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 4:23 PM >>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0 >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> I like most people am staying away from Jaws 8 and am migrating to >>> WindowEyes as much as possible. I am still falling back to the jaws >>> keystrokes quite a bit, but am getting there. >>> >>> Why they released version 8 days after releasing the 7.10 update was a >>> mystery - they had precious time to do more tests on it, plus make >>> version >>> 8 >>> a Vista compatible upgrade! >>> >>> Andrew. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Dj Paddy >>> Sent: Mon 20/11/2006 16:20 >>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0 >>> >>> This is shocking. >>> >>> I've just been reading the latest disaster and can not believe somebody >>> is >>> honestly going to pay for this. >>> >>> This thing isn't even supporting Vista for goodness sake! >>> >>> And what is all that SAPI Alia's stuff about in say all? >>> >>> OMG, that's a new feature? >>> >>> More and more nonsense! >>> >>> I'm raging because, I like many wasted my money on this rubbish for >>> years! >>> >>> I'm disgusted because, many still will! Also rehab agency's and that >>> whole >>> area will thrust this product on unsuspecting souls. >>> >>> Note: this is a consumers viewpoint and I think it's utter pooh. >>> Barry >>> Ôà >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 3:39 PM >>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Jaws V 8.0 >>> >>> >>> Andrew, for details of JAWS 8 go to: >>> >>> http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_jaws80fea.asp#OS >>> >>> From Ray >>> I can be contacted off-list at: >>> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf >>> Of andrew shipp >>> >>> Hi All, What are the benefits of upgrading to Jaws V 8.0? >>> Regards >>> >>> Andrew Shipp >>> >>> Located Northampton Northamptonshire UK >>> >>> Home phone...+44]0,1604 517007 >>> >>> Mobile 07983598287 >>> Skype name...andyshipp55 >>> >>> Ham callsign M 0 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