On 09 May 2002 19:35:24 +0100 "Mark H. Wilkinson" <mhw+wily@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Thu, 2002-05-09 at 17:28, James A. Robinson wrote: > > I doubt downloads == real users, or is even close. =) I know I downloaded > > it years ago, and didn't grok it at all (i.e., didn't use it). It wasn't > > until I started reading all the Plan 9 documents that I started using > > wily, and I had to really force myself to explore the new way of doing > > things instead of just starting up emacs for complicated tasks. > > I'd have the same suspicion. I was talking offline with Oz about wily > being included with things like Debian, but I can imagine most users > being scared off by it when they first see it. I get the feeling that > acme and it's tools are set up in such a way under Plan 9 that it's > probably not too difficult for a new user to pick up once they have the > basic principles under their belt, and quickly becomes compelling. I > don't think wily ever quite got to that level of polish. > I think that it's true and false in the the same time. ( won't compile ;) Let me speak about my experience with wily ( short ) because I'm a a new user, not all the new users, but one of them. First of all, I'm not just new on wily, but on unix too ( OpenBSD ) since one year. I found wily by accident : i was just curious about the bizzaroid stuff in the /usr/ports/plan9/stuff in my OS. The description said : a powerful editor fo programer. I compile/installed and open ... heheheh and I said "Tabarna... it's probably the editor that Jacques Cartier had in his boat when he discover the St-Lawrence's Valley in 1644". Am I need to tell you that I deinstalled this... garbage... immediatly ? Wily is not intuitive without a little help. It's true that it GUI cannot be compare to things like any WYSIWIG or something like kdevelop for programer. ok for this. However, when I discovered the wily tutorial one month after ( i didn't see this doc the first time because my ports mechanism installed it too fast ) and I have enough time to waste ;) to try it... fiou... I don't know enough word in english to tell you how I was ... well surprize. The only thing that I can tell is I had some spasm in my brain... I'm not kidding you, it's true. When I realized the power of this tool and all the things that I'll could do with it, I realized in the same time that wily is not an editor full of windows but a window over all my unix's system and it can have the power and control on my system as much as my unix's knowledge. ( and I wish that you'll understand this much more than my english knowledge :) Don't forget that I'm new on unix, I didn't take any professional unix's course or programming ( is not what I wished) and my apprenticeship is very randomely. Wily increase the speed of my apprenticeship. By example, because I dont have ten xterm spreaded over ten virtual screen but all the information centralized. I dont lost or forget some information and I save a lots of clickclickclickclick of searching what I want and clickclickclick to return at the first place. Because of its B2 B2-B1ing possibility, it begin to be funny to learn a shell. The first time I did a man some_shell I was discouraged... Now, it's like a game that it begin to be more serious. Wily have been and be a strong help to motive myself to learn my shell ( rc .. evidemment :) and to learned and learn a TONS of other things. I'm new on unix but I'm not the only one... and I suspicion especially on Linux because I think that this OS must attract much more users than OpenBSD or a SunOS by example. They probably don't know nothing about unix and just try it because it is "a la mode". To understand quickly, correctly and deeply unix, they need some good tools and wily IS one of these good tools. I think that it good like a learning tools and for advanced users too. In finishing, I didn't find more difficult to learn wily than vi. I think that the experienced unix's users must have more difficulty to addapt there old reflex of making a shift+ZZ to save and close a file than a click Put/Del. The evidence is that the only one user that I can't show a talk about wily is an old ( 25 years experience ) programmer. He always said to me " I'm use to use jed and its good ... jed .. jed... jed... jed... jed... no.. no... jed... no... no...jed" heheh :) I wish that anyone here will recognize himself before he tried wily in that sentence ;) I'm tired... one hour to translate this post... for a 30 second to read. -- Serge Gagnon