Thanks to Yamada,
For starting this very good discussion.
As Cosmin Iorga and Istvan Novak pointed, if the old method worked in 70's and
80's it might not work at modern technology. In Altera and afterÂ
we saw that this happened starting 120- and 90-nm devices, already. To address
new effects associated with increased transient noiseÂ
many companies started to study of on-Chip Dynamic current, on-die structure,
and how its impact the PDN and product performance.Â
Particular, as Cosmin noted, different configuration of FPGA, or different mode
of a microprocessor might produce different Dynamic currentÂ
profile and might require different approach for the PDN design, including
decoupling. High ESR capacitances appeared as one of the attempt toÂ
fight modern system resonances. Number of companies started experimenting
with high ESR capacitances: Oracle - as pointed and referencedÂ
by Istvan, in Altera we did it with capacitances from TDK and Sanyo Electric
Co. Ltd.Â
We know some groups in different companies which are also using high ESR
capacitances without publishing it. I also could not demonstrate,
for now, how ESR caps may improve PDN, but instead, I have published an example
how increasing number of decoupling capacitors leads toÂ
rising PDN resonances: we decreased number of decoupling capacitances and
measured Jitter resonance induced by PDN noise, - the resonanceÂ
peak was reduced at decreasing number of capacitances, and, hence, increasing
system ESR.Â
You might see these results in paper âOn-chipJitter and system Power
Integrityâ DesignCon 2012,Â
and Tutorial âDoes'better' PDN result in better product performance?â
DesignCon 2015.
 Thank you.
Iliya Zamek
Â
On Friday, August 24, 2018, 11:02:33 PM PDT, Cosmin Iorga
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Interesting discussion - here are some more thoughts:Â From a simplified
perspective "sprinkling" capacitors throughout the power planes combined with
the mounting inductance and planes cavity parasitics creates multiple RLC type
resonant loops "sprinkled" throughout the power plane region. Intuitively, it
is now a matter of frequency spectrum of the power supply transient currents to
decide if the multitude of RLC resonant structures help or not. If this
method worked in 70's and 80's (for those typical operating frequencies and
rise/fall times) it does not necessarily mean that it will work these days.Â
It all depends on how the spectral components of the power supply transient
currents overlap with the resonance frequencies of these "sprinkled" RLC
resonant structures. An FPGA for example may generate different transient
supply currents for different configurations, and on the same board if we load
one configuration file we may see improvement from this capacitor "sprinkling"
te
chnique and if we load a different configuration file we may see no
improvement or even degradation of the PDN performance. So in my opinion
there is no unique answer to whether the capacitor sprinkling technique works
or not.
Regards,
Cosmin
http://www.piscanner.com
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 8/24/18, Bob B <Myrna5@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Controlled ESR capacitor
To: tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, "'FRED MOTTER'"
<motter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "FRED B" <FRED@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jacques Tazartes"
<jacquest15@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Ibrahim, Emad" <EIbrahim@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Friday, August 24, 2018, 3:46 PM
Tom, I agree.
Worked at Litton Industries, Teledyne
Systems and Northrop Grumman as
Signal Integrity Manager from 70's till
2006. Working with Two EMC
counterparts, we improved test results,
yield and success when we added
and critically placed decoupling caps
to circuit board layouts.Â
Capacitor design and selection was one
of my responsibilities early on.Â
Also oscillator design and research. I
added these experiences because
it helped reinforce the analysis. Hope
our hands-on experience helps.
Bob Bremer, retired.
On 8/24/2018 3:41 PM, Tom Dagostino
wrote:
Leestatement. If people have found important
I don't agree with your last
information but can't share thedetails it is still good knowledge to know
their conclusions. It allowsothers to go down the path and verify for
themselves if the stated resultsare correct. It at least points to a path
that might be worth exploring.[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Regards
Tom Dagostino
971-279-5325
tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Teraspeed Labs
9999 SW Wilshire Street
Suite 102
Portland, OR 97225
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Behalf Of leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx12:51 PM
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018
To: 'Ravinder Ajmani'; CHARLES.GRASSO@xxxxxxxx;joel.brown@xxxxxxxxxx;
ken.patterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'Istvan Novak';
Cc: asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
junichi.yamada.ak@xxxxxxxxxxx;'SI-List'
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: ControledESR capacitor
some change as capacitors are moved isn't
Ravinder,
The fact that a simulator shows
enough to conclude that this willmake a difference in EMI or anything else.
If there is good test dataÂthat supports this as significant, it needs to
be shown or this should notbe offered as a design rule. Even then, there
needs to be limits offered as towhen the rules apply.
the results are company confidential as the
I often hear the statement that
reason the proof cannot bepublished. If that is the case, the rules should
not be offered on this forum.12:42 PM
-----Original Message-----
From: Ravinder Ajmani <ravinder.ajmani@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;CHARLES.GRASSO@xxxxxxxx;
joel.brown@xxxxxxxxxx;ken.patterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;'Istvan Novak'
<istvan.novak@xxxxxxxxxxx>;junichi.yamada.ak@xxxxxxxxxxx;
<si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Controled ESR capacitor
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re:
actual data, which is Company
Lee,
As you often say, I can't provide
Confidential. I am attachinga part of ANSYS workshop showing details of
Resonant Mode Analysis, which iswhat I was referring to.
and CC list will not be able to see the
Sorry, other than those on the TO
attachment.Some People and Astonish the Rest ....
Regards,
Ravinder Ajmani
Western Digital(r)
5601 Great Oaks Pkwy
San Jose, CA 95119
Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxx
www.wdc.com
Always Do Right. This Will Gratify
Mark Twain[mailto:leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
-----Original Message-----
From: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, August 24, 201811:08 AM
To: Ravinder Ajmani <ravinder.ajmani@xxxxxxx>;CHARLES.GRASSO@xxxxxxxx;
joel.brown@xxxxxxxxxx;ken.patterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;'Istvan Novak'
<istvan.novak@xxxxxxxxxxx>;junichi.yamada.ak@xxxxxxxxxxx;
<si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Controled ESR capacitor
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re:
me to believe this, because my experience
You have to show me, if you want
does not support that claim.10:59 AM
-----Original Message-----
From: Ravinder Ajmani <ravinder.ajmani@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;CHARLES.GRASSO@xxxxxxxx;
joel.brown@xxxxxxxxxx;ken.patterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;'Istvan Novak'
<istvan.novak@xxxxxxxxxxx>;junichi.yamada.ak@xxxxxxxxxxx;
<si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Controled ESR capacitor
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re:
analysis on any plane pair, you will notice
Lee,
If you perform a resonance
localized resonances at differentfrequencies. If these are close to I/Os
then it can result in EMI issues.Some People and Astonish the Rest ....
Regards,
Ravinder Ajmani
Western Digital(r)
5601 Great Oaks Pkwy
San Jose, CA 95119
Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxx
www.wdc.com
Always Do Right. This Will Gratify
Mark Twain[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Behalf Of leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx10:30 AM
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018
To: CHARLES.GRASSO@xxxxxxxx;joel.brown@xxxxxxxxxx;
ken.patterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'Istvan Novak'
Cc: asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
<istvan.novak@xxxxxxxxxxx>;junichi.yamada.ak@xxxxxxxxxxx;
<si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>ESR capacitor
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Controled
engineering term? Sounds very arbitrary to me
When did sprinkling become an
and it is. Wouldn't changeinterplane resonances is any significant way.
Where did this idea comefrom? Is there supporting data?
<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Of Grasso, Charles12:21 PM
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018
To: joel.brown@xxxxxxxxxx;ken.patterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Lee Ritchey <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;Istvan Novak <istvan.novak@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
junichi.yamada.ak@xxxxxxxxxxx;SI-List <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: ControledESR capacitor
The low inductance application is for
I see two distinct applications.
energy delivery. The cap sprinkle(sorry Lee!) is to manage the interplane
resonances.[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Behalf Of Joel Brown10:47 AM
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018
To: ken.patterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxIstvan Novak <istvan.novak@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
Cc: Lee Ritchey <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
junichi.yamada.ak@xxxxxxxxxxx;SI-List <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: ControledESR capacitor
DISH and was sent by:
This message originated outside of
si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxit clearly states the most important
In the book I previously mentioned
aspect of a bypass cap is mountinginductance.
Adding a discrete resistor inseries obviously adds a significant amount of
inductance.be flatter maybe the extra inductance can
But since the PDN impedeance would
be tolerated.trade offs between very low ESR with lowest
Would be interesting to see the
inductance and resistor in serieswith capacitor.
Ken Patterson <
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 8:58 AM,
ken.patterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
not inhale them accidentally!
You have to wear a mask as to
AM <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 11:56
Message-----
I can't even see 0201s!
-----Original
<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
22, 2018 5:08 PMBehalf Of Aubrey Sparkman
Sent: Wednesday, August
junichi.yamada.ak@xxxxxxxxxxx;To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: istvan.novak@xxxxxxxxxxx;
Controled ESR capacitorsi-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re:
0201s...
Discontinue 0402s for
instead of 0402s if you are doing a redesign
Consider using 0201s
 :-)due to caps.
Youre welcome!Â
11:29 AM, <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Aubrey
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 22, 2018, at
wrote:leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
by our ceramic capacitor suppliers that theyWe just got informed
sizes to focus on 0402 as that is where thewerediscontinuing their 0603
tablets. Going to make is redesign severalaction
is with cell phones and
Message-----PCBsto
the smaller size.
What next?
-----Original
<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
NovakOn Behalf Of Istvan
21, 2018 8:30 PMSent: Tuesday, August
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxTo: junichi.yamada.ak@xxxxxxxxxxx;
Controled ESR capacitorSubject: [SI-LIST] Re:
part of a generic trend of component shortage
Hi Yamada,
This appears to be
ceramic capacitor manufacturers are reroutingandproduct cancellations:
capabilities to higher-volume and more lucrativetheir
existing production
over the many years have been very successfulapplications. Users
the point that it has become financiallydemanding lower prices to
new manufacturing capacity. The interestingnot viable to invest in
to replace ceramic capacitors with othertwist is that people try
polymer capacitors, which tend to be more costlytypes, for instance
then ceramics.you need an ohm of ESR, you can simply add a
On a practical note: if
resistor. The added piece increases theseries
one-ohm discrete
ESR of an ohm, the impact tends to be small.inductance, but with an
if you already have a product in volumeThis of course wont help
the controlled-ESR footprint.manufacturing with just
AM, Junichi Yamada wrote:Regards,
Istvan Novak
On 8/21/2018 9:49
use ESR controlled capacitor. (For example ESR >Hello experts
In my product, I
decided to discontinue this product.1000
m) However, TDK
if you know another capacitor with similarhttps://product.tdk.com/info/en/products/emc/emc/absorber/catalog
.htm
l
Please let me know
Murata's LLR series. (However, there is thecharacteristics.
* I know the
discontinuing production as well.)possibility of
https://psearch.en.murata.com/capacitor/product/LLR185C70G105ME07%23.
-----------------------------------------------------------------h
tml
Regards.
Yamada
from si-list:-
To unsubscribe
with 'unsubscribe' in the Subjectsi-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
your membership from a web page, go to:field
or to administer
with 'help' in the Subject field//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
is accessible at:
List forumÂ
       http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list Â
viewable at:
List archives are
   //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Â
6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June
    http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu Â
------------------------------------------------------------------
si-list:To unsubscribe from
with 'unsubscribe' in the Subjectsi-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
membership from a web page, go to:field
or to administer your
with 'help' in the Subject field//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
accessible at:
List forum is
     http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list  Â
viewable at:
List archives are
  //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list  Â
2001) list archives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June 6,
  http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu  Â
------------------------------------------------------------------
si-list:To unsubscribe from
with 'unsubscribe' in the Subjectsi-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
membership from a web page, go to:field
or to administer your
with 'help' in the Subject field//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
accessible at:
List forum is
     http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list  Â
viewable at:
List archives are
  //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list  Â
2001) list archives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June 6,
  http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu  Â
------------------------------------------------------------------
si-list:To unsubscribe from
with 'unsubscribe' in the Subjectsi-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
membership from a web page, go to:field
or to administer your
with 'help' in the Subject field//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
accessible at:
List forum is
     http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list   Â
at:
List archives are viewable
     //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list   Â
2001) list archives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June 6,
     http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu   Â
------------------------------------------------------------------
si-list:To unsubscribe from
with 'unsubscribe' in the Subjectsi-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
membership from a web page, go to:field
or to administer your
with 'help' in the Subject field//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
accessible at:
List forum is
     http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list   Â
at:
List archives are viewable
     //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list   Â
2001) list archives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June 6,
     http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu   Â
<javascript:void(0);>Ken Patterson
--
*Senior Hardware Engineer*
*The Telos Alliance *
*1241 Superior Ave*
*Cleveland, Ohio 44144*
Main: +1.216.241.7225
+1.216.622.0247 <javascript:void(0);>24/7 Support:Â
<http://telosalliance.com/>[image: www.telosalliance.com]
------------------------------------------------------------------<https://www.facebook.com/TelosAlliance> <https://twitter.com/
TelosAlliance>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/telosalliance>
<https://www.youtube.com/user/TelosAllianceTV>
with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject fieldTo unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
membership from a web page, go to:
or to administer your
with 'help' in the Subject field//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
at:
List forum is accessible
     http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list   Â
at:
List archives are viewable
     //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list   Â
list archives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June 6, 2001)
     http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu   Â
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
from a web page, go to:
or to administer your membership
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-listwith 'help' in the Subject field
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
at:
List forum is accessible
    Â    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
   //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
  Â
 Âarchives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list
    Â   http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
 Â------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
from a web page, go to:
or to administer your membership
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-listwith 'help' in the Subject field
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
at:
List forum is accessible
    Â    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
   //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
  Â
 Âarchives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list
    Â   http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
 Â------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
from a web page, go to:
or to administer your membership
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-listwith 'help' in the Subject field
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
at:
List forum is accessible
    Â    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
   //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
  Â
 Âarchives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list
    Â   http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
 Â------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
from a web page, go to:
or to administer your membership
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-listwith 'help' in the Subject field
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
at:
List forum is accessible
    Â    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
   //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
  Â
 Âarchives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list
    Â   http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
 Â------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
from a web page, go to:
or to administer your membership
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-listwith 'help' in the Subject field
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
at:
List forum is accessible
    Â    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
   //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
  Â
 Âarchives are viewable at:
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list
    Â   http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
 Â