Well you certainly stirred the pot Richard. I believe that was your
intention knowing you as I do and knowing how passionate you are about
whatever issue you bring up or have a concern about. Not a bad thing.
Some of the feedback has been informative. Some has been blunt. Some makes
good sense and some of the ideas the Board is already discussing and
considering due to this thread.
Technology is awesome. Especially new technology that we could potentially
use to make our launches better and more safe than they already are. Safety
is something that we all must stay vigilant about. It is something that
can and does become complacent. So it's good these issues are brought up
often.
There are NAR and Tripoli high power safety rules and safe launch practices
that we must follow. Some are stated vaguely and left to the Launch
Director and Board's interpretation and some are very well defined. ROC
follows the rules and safe practices. Tripoli states "do not ignite and
launch a rocket in a manner that is hazardous to aircraft". NAR states do
not launch "near airplanes". ROC follows all the conditions of approval
required by our FAA waiver. We abide by NFPA 1127 and 14 CFR Part 101.29.
Monitoring aircraft with apps or a radar or any other device is not
required. It doesn't do any harm but quite frankly the Board has a ton of
other things to monitor like kids or adults riding bikes in the safety zone.
Just so you know the Board is considering buying an app that will be loaded
onto the ROC tablet and monitored by registration and the LCO table. We're
considering it in part due to this thread. Andrew is on top of this. You
have been heard Richard, although, I truly believe a visual by the LCO and
Spotter is faster and better than an app. But that's just me.
Mike Kramer nailed it in my opinion with his response, specifically #4.
Mike Ostby,
ROC President
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 9:29 AM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Richard,
Plenty of people know about S-Mode transponders and decoders; you
absolutely do not need one of these to run a successful launch.
In the end the AHJ is ARTCC and the tools I've provided will just give you
better visibility versus calling the radar supervisor on watch.
I didn't intend for you to use this as some sort of sword, even though I
used an S-Mode decoder during LDRS, it's absolutely NOT required.
Don't read my email the wrong way, but your email is scary and obsessive /
compulsive - you focus on the negative here and not all of the great
stuff which has been done, especially by the ROC board for the safety of
the hobby. I know that's not your intention but reading back on these
emails - holy hell Richard! What is wrong?
I think ROC has done an awesome job running launches and supporting the
hobby, Rocstock, LDRS, and monthlies - and there is very little to improve
(other than
making them run longer :-). All of the items you've described are normal
activities and concerns that every LCO/RSO and launch director
will obsess over during and throughout a launch. And those rules and
procedures are very well defined. I would suggest that you spend some
time shadowing RSO or LCO or sign up for duties and gain some experience
there, there are 100's of things that you will learn and people
don't always write about these details since it would be a small novel and
you really have to experience yourself to fully understand.
-James
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 9:02 AM, Richard Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx
wrote:
Mike Kramer: I like the way you approach things Mike; I’ve learned a lot
from you. I’m not a pilot. I know that more small airplanes are equipped
with transponders than years ago, but I’m not knowledgable about all the
modes and details. But others seem to have a good grasp on this subject
and also are aware of the limitations. (You can go to the bottom line now
if you don’t have a lot of time.)
So yeah, I would have to look through my notebooks to see how many
different things I’ve considered as being important safety items. It’s
easily more than 10 things that I’m still working on. I think of potential
adverse outcomes as “bad” and Really Bad” and usually just focus efforts on
the “Really Bad” ones. To be completely honest, I don’t have a good idea
on the probability of some things happening. Some things, I’ve just
witnessed and that’s enough. Like seeing the small aircraft fly under the
rocket on the parachute last year.
Examples include, the role and duties of the RSO and PM, rockets coming
down hot in the spectator area, visual indication at the pads that rows of
pads are armed, communication at the back pads, timing of launching
rockets, revision of the liability waiver, warning people about ballistic
rockets, emergency response procedures… And, those are just old ones. I
have new ones too, and this current subject is just a revisit! So, I can
be annoying, and a pain in the ass. Some people don’t think it’s worth
hearing my concerns and suggestions. And, at times I’ve taken a break, or
should I say given you all a break. ;-)
I posted because I was interested in any new technology. I think the
subject line of my first post on this was “Radar or Something Like It.” I
was frankly ignorant about aircraft transponder technology. Anyway, I
think that’s why I got the “oh, you again” response this time. But, what’s
the harm asking? If the Board tried something like this and it was too
time consuming or provided disappointing results that doesn’t mean my
interest in this should go in the “unsolicited ideas file” which I’m
assuming is the trash can. Sometimes to find new things that are useful,
you need to ask others. For example, who already knew about what James and
TCC are using?
Bottom Line: The Board is doing a great job. I didn’t intend to suggest
otherwise. Even if there is always a Spotter, more people willing to do
this, or just more people aware of the need to help monitor air traffic and
encouraged to speak up this has been useful. And, I have a cool new app on
my iPhone. :-)
Richard Dierking
On May 29, 2018, at 7:36 AM, Michael Klett <xsive.guy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"5) Um, *Thanks to the Board*, and all the 'super volunteers' for all
the work that they do, to have as many launches (and good ones) as we do.
P.S. Lee it is ALWAYS a good time for a BBQ and campfire."
Dilly, Dilly!
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 6:11 AM, mnkramer.net <kramer@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I like to think of safety, like most things in a very pragmatic way.
(yes it is bullet list time)
1) As a pilot, and someone that works in the industry, it is VERY hard
for most people to accurately judge the altitude of a commercial plane or
business jet. On Friday I was coming home from a trip and we flew
DIRECTLY over Lucerene. We were at 20-25K feet. I was thinking what
altitude would people from the ground think this was. I'm guessing much
lower.
2) Same flight, we were probably above 300 mph ground speed at that
point that works out to be 5 miles per minute. What clear range would you
use? 10 miles (2 minutes)? The number of false positives would either, A)
stop most launching, or B) be frequently enough as to start to get
ignored....
3) Small Aircraft, different problem, this is more of a concern coming
down under chute than launching, minutes in the air, tough to see (small
drogue). Would ADS-B solve that? ADS-B is not a requirement for all of the
airspace over Lucerne. An extra spotter would be the best help (as someone
who has done LOTS of LCO duty).
4) AND THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE, the Pareto Principal. Think of
ALL of the potential safety things you have seen or can think about on the
lake bed EVERYTHING and pick which are more likely to result in an
incident. Be honest and realistic about it. Focus the efforts on the MOST
LIKELY things. I bet that an incident with an aircraft is MUCH lower of a
probability than other things you can think of. Things that can be
addressed first. I would give my thoughts off chat if interested.
5) Um, *Thanks to the Board*, and all the 'super volunteers' for all
the work that they do, to have as many launches (and good ones) as we do.
6) Lots of good ideas, not saying inaction is better than action but, I
would rather stop, plan and think before just reacting, ready aim fire, not
ready fire aim.
Mike Kramer
P.S. Lee it is ALWAYS a good time for a BBQ and campfire.
On 5/28/2018 11:12 PM, Michael Klett wrote:
I've enjoyed the chat of this thread in ROC chat. I don't have any
answers. Sorry. But more than once as LCO I have scanned the range and
the sky and said over the PA, "Range is clear. Sky is clear. Going in
5... 4... 3... 2... 1..." and pushed the go button. Watched the rocket go
up and then saw the plane and the contrails and wondered where it was 6
seconds before when I scanned the sky and been very worried that I launched
when I shouldn't have.
A pair of thoughts. I wish more people would yell hold when there are
planes overhead that I missed. And learning that model rockets are clear
to fly when commercial airliners are overhead is nice to know. Thanks
Allen.
My hat is off to the board that always puts on such great launches.
See you all at ROCStock. I'll have the light-up viking helmet on again
Saturday night.
Thanks,
Mike
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Richard Dierking <
applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
It’s good to hear Gregg’s and David EW’s comments. Maybe even David
Smith’s comments. :-)
Kurt, Allen, Mike, all understand me. I know that James has been in my
head and that must have been a scary experience. Anyway, these guys don’t
get too ruffled by what I say. Fortunately, they know my intentions
(because they are big guys) and the awkward way that I present myself at
times.
So, there will probably be spotters and vigilance and lots of teamwork
at ROCstock that’s about 11 days from now. You will all prove that I’m
wrong, and I will love every minute.
I measure the importance of things by not only the chances, but by the
consequences. When something happens, like a rocket coming down ballistic
in the spectator area. Please take the time to try and determine why and
prevent it. Not, “I didn’t hear it hit metal, is everyone OK?, now going
to the middle row.”
There will always be risk, but for some things there needs to be a
definitive solution, not just acceptance.
See you at ROCstock. Now I have to take extra beer money.
Richard Dierking
On May 28, 2018, at 6:59 PM, David Erbas-White <derbas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
On 5/28/2018 6:02 PM, Kurt Gugisberg wrote:
Does it count if I LCO on an inconsistent basis? <G>
I've always been a big one for making sure we don't launch if we see,
or hear, an aircraft flying over. It's not just the rules, it's that I
don't ever want to have to worry about someone in a low-flying plane being
able to take an iPhone shot off what looks like a rocket being fired at
them (even if it couldn't possibly have reached their altitude). There's
too much at stake (for the hobby) in my eyes than to treat it otherwise.
I'm probably considered a pain in the butt by some (okay, maybe more
than 'some'), but if I hear a plane over the playa, and I see an LCO arming
the controllers, I'll start yelling 'HOLD' as loud as I can until we can
identify the aircraft and make CERTAIN that it's flying away from the
playa, or at an altitude that it can't POSSIBLY be able to take that 'bad
photo'. I know for a fact that some folks have gotten upset with me for
that shout-out, but at least 25% of the time it turns out that there IS an
aircraft in the area that we have to wait for, so I'm willing to put up
with the nasty looks the other 75% of the time...
Just last month (April launch) I was LCOing for a brief while, and at
one point I realized I had just launched a mid-power rocket as an aircraft
went overhead (I'd guess around 3000' AGL). There wasn't a chance of the
rocket hitting the plane, but there certainly WAS a chance of someone
getting that 'bad photo', and I was upset with myself for not having seen
the plane beforehand. BTW, nobody commented on the plane until after I'd
pushed the button, either (I certainly would have appreciated it if someone
HAD yelled 'HOLD' at me).
...and we haven't even talked about the flip side of the coin. I'm
ticked off at the pilots who choose to ignore the NOTAM that we call in for
our launches and either decide it doesn't apply to them, or they're too
lazy to check things out in the first place. We have, after all, been
warning all the pilots consistently for years about the launches -- yet we
still get more than our share of idiots who think it's 'cool' to see the
rocket launches up close from the air.
Now, do I think we need to have some sort of 'aircraft warning system'
in place other than our own eyes and ears? Nope. I just think we need to
apply the eyes/ears a little more conscientiously than we have been (and as
you'll note by my story from last month, I include myself in that...).
David Erbas-White
I, for one, would like to hear from everyone that LCOs on a consistent
basis as to how big an issue low flying aircraft has been for them.
Kurt
Sent from my iPhone
On May 28, 2018, at 2:31 PM, Allen Farrington <allen.farrington@xxxxxx>
wrote:
Richard, since you just brought this up yesterday on the chat, I’m not
sure if anyone on board has had time to think about it. I, for one, have
been building rockets for ROCStock!
Are you concerned about commercial traffic or private/GA aircraft?
Allen
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Allen H. Farrington
http://www.allenfarrington.org
818-653-2284
On May 28, 2018, at 10:21 AM, Richard Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Thank you for the info James. I don’t think the ROC Board is
interested in this at the moment. I’m going to use the flightradar24 app
that Andrew suggested. It’s interesting just watching the air traffic.
And, no, I wouldn’t watch the screen during a whole launch. But,
before I launch a rocket of mine, yes, I would check the app first. And, I
want to learn more about what it has to offer.
Just check out air traffic around the Hawaiian Islands with the
eruption on Hawaii. Interesting stuff, but sorry, going OT.
Richard
On May 27, 2018, at 5:58 PM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I didn't spend the launch monitoring my screen at LDRS.
And ... I spotted 4 airliners in our area at LDRS (two UA, 2 AA), all
at FL30 above us.
Maybe you saw the ADSB setup that David brought to LDRS, similar but
better UI.
I keep mine under the table. I also modified the code to alert me when
something is within 4nm
of our launch site. I can give you the patch if you're interested.
On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 5:34 PM, David Smith <davew6dps@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Easy and cheap, and if you want to spend the entire launch sitting and
monitoring your screen.
ROCstock would be a great launch to test it.
See how much useful information you actually get and report back.
Dave Smith
On Sun, May 27, 2018, 5:11 PM James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Easy, and cheap too.
RTL2832 - https://www.adafruit.com/product/1497
Dump1090 - https://github.com/antirez/dump1090
Linux laptop
--
I shall live in the house of the Lord all the days of my life.
Psalm 23:6cd <http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/bible/psalms/23:6>
--
I shall live in the house of the Lord all the days of my life.
Psalm 23:6cd <http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/bible/psalms/23:6>
