I like to think of safety, like most things in a very pragmatic way.
(yes it is bullet list time)
1) As a pilot, and someone that works in the industry, it is VERY hard
for most people to accurately judge the altitude of a commercial plane
or business jet. On Friday I was coming home from a trip and we flew
DIRECTLY over Lucerene. We were at 20-25K feet. I was thinking what
altitude would people from the ground think this was. I'm guessing much
lower.
2) Same flight, we were probably above 300 mph ground speed at that
point that works out to be 5 miles per minute. What clear range would
you use? 10 miles (2 minutes)? The number of false positives would
either, A) stop most launching, or B) be frequently enough as to start
to get ignored....
3) Small Aircraft, different problem, this is more of a concern coming
down under chute than launching, minutes in the air, tough to see (small
drogue). Would ADS-B solve that? ADS-B is not a requirement for all of
the airspace over Lucerne. An extra spotter would be the best help (as
someone who has done LOTS of LCO duty).
4) AND THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE, the Pareto Principal. Think of
ALL of the potential safety things you have seen or can think about on
the lake bed EVERYTHING and pick which are more likely to result in an
incident. Be honest and realistic about it. Focus the efforts on the
MOST LIKELY things. I bet that an incident with an aircraft is MUCH
lower of a probability than other things you can think of. Things that
can be addressed first. I would give my thoughts off chat if interested.
5) Um, *Thanks to the Board*, and all the 'super volunteers' for all the
work that they do, to have as many launches (and good ones) as we do.
6) Lots of good ideas, not saying inaction is better than action but, I
would rather stop, plan and think before just reacting, ready aim fire,
not ready fire aim.
Mike Kramer
P.S. Lee it is ALWAYS a good time for a BBQ and campfire.
On 5/28/2018 11:12 PM, Michael Klett wrote:
I've enjoyed the chat of this thread in ROC chat. I don't have any answers. Sorry. But more than once as LCO I have scanned the range and the sky and said over the PA, "Range is clear. Sky is clear. Going in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1..." and pushed the go button. Watched the rocket go up and then saw the plane and the contrails and wondered where it was 6 seconds before when I scanned the sky and been very worried that I launched when I shouldn't have.
A pair of thoughts. I wish more people would yell hold when there are planes overhead that I missed. And learning that model rockets are clear to fly when commercial airliners are overhead is nice to know. Thanks Allen.
My hat is off to the board that always puts on such great launches.
See you all at ROCStock. I'll have the light-up viking helmet on again Saturday night.
Thanks,
Mike
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Richard Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
It’s good to hear Gregg’s and David EW’s comments. Maybe even
David Smith’s comments. :-)
Kurt, Allen, Mike, all understand me. I know that James has been
in my head and that must have been a scary experience. Anyway,
these guys don’t get too ruffled by what I say. Fortunately, they
know my intentions (because they are big guys) and the awkward way
that I present myself at times.
So, there will probably be spotters and vigilance and lots of
teamwork at ROCstock that’s about 11 days from now. You will all
prove that I’m wrong, and I will love every minute.
I measure the importance of things by not only the chances, but by
the consequences. When something happens, like a rocket coming
down ballistic in the spectator area. Please take the time to try
and determine why and prevent it. Not, “I didn’t hear it hit
metal, is everyone OK?, now going to the middle row.”
There will always be risk, but for some things there needs to be a
definitive solution, not just acceptance.
See you at ROCstock. Now I have to take extra beer money.
Richard Dierking
On May 28, 2018, at 6:59 PM, David Erbas-White
<derbas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:derbas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
On 5/28/2018 6:02 PM, Kurt Gugisberg wrote:
Does it count if I LCO on an inconsistent basis? <G>
I've always been a big one for making sure we don't launch if we
see, or hear, an aircraft flying over. It's not just the rules,
it's that I don't ever want to have to worry about someone in a
low-flying plane being able to take an iPhone shot off what looks
like a rocket being fired at them (even if it couldn't possibly
have reached their altitude). There's too much at stake (for the
hobby) in my eyes than to treat it otherwise.
I'm probably considered a pain in the butt by some (okay, maybe
more than 'some'), but if I hear a plane over the playa, and I
see an LCO arming the controllers, I'll start yelling 'HOLD' as
loud as I can until we can identify the aircraft and make CERTAIN
that it's flying away from the playa, or at an altitude that it
can't POSSIBLY be able to take that 'bad photo'. I know for a
fact that some folks have gotten upset with me for that
shout-out, but at least 25% of the time it turns out that there
IS an aircraft in the area that we have to wait for, so I'm
willing to put up with the nasty looks the other 75% of the time...
Just last month (April launch) I was LCOing for a brief while,
and at one point I realized I had just launched a mid-power
rocket as an aircraft went overhead (I'd guess around 3000'
AGL). There wasn't a chance of the rocket hitting the plane, but
there certainly WAS a chance of someone getting that 'bad photo',
and I was upset with myself for not having seen the plane
beforehand. BTW, nobody commented on the plane until after I'd
pushed the button, either (I certainly would have appreciated it
if someone HAD yelled 'HOLD' at me).
...and we haven't even talked about the flip side of the coin.
I'm ticked off at the pilots who choose to ignore the NOTAM that
we call in for our launches and either decide it doesn't apply to
them, or they're too lazy to check things out in the first
place. We have, after all, been warning all the pilots
consistently for years about the launches -- yet we still get
more than our share of idiots who think it's 'cool' to see the
rocket launches up close from the air.
Now, do I think we need to have some sort of 'aircraft warning
system' in place other than our own eyes and ears? Nope. I just
think we need to apply the eyes/ears a little more
conscientiously than we have been (and as you'll note by my story
from last month, I include myself in that...).
David Erbas-White
I, for one, would like to hear from everyone that LCOs on a
consistent basis as to how big an issue low flying aircraft has
been for them.
Kurt
Sent from my iPhone
On May 28, 2018, at 2:31 PM, Allen Farrington
<allen.farrington@xxxxxx <mailto:allen.farrington@xxxxxx>> wrote:
Richard, since you just brought this up yesterday on the chat,
I’m not sure if anyone on board has had time to think about it.
I, for one, have been building rockets for ROCStock!
Are you concerned about commercial traffic or private/GA aircraft?
Allen
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Allen H. Farrington
http://www.allenfarrington.org ;<http://www.allenfarrington.org/>
818-653-2284
On May 28, 2018, at 10:21 AM, Richard Dierking
<applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Thank you for the info James. I don’t think the ROC Board is
interested in this at the moment. I’m going to use the
flightradar24 app that Andrew suggested. It’s interesting
just watching the air traffic.
And, no, I wouldn’t watch the screen during a whole launch.
But, before I launch a rocket of mine, yes, I would check the
app first. And, I want to learn more about what it has to offer.
Just check out air traffic around the Hawaiian Islands with
the eruption on Hawaii. Interesting stuff, but sorry, going OT.
Richard
On May 27, 2018, at 5:58 PM, James Dougherty
<jafrado@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I didn't spend the launch monitoring my screen at LDRS.
And ... I spotted 4 airliners in our area at LDRS (two UA, 2
AA), all at FL30 above us.
Maybe you saw the ADSB setup that David brought to LDRS,
similar but better UI.
I keep mine under the table. I also modified the code to
alert me when something is within 4nm
of our launch site. I can give you the patch if you're
interested.
On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 5:34 PM, David Smith
<davew6dps@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:davew6dps@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Easy and cheap, and if you want to spend the entire
launch sitting and monitoring your screen.
ROCstock would be a great launch to test it.
See how much useful information you actually get and
report back.
Dave Smith
On Sun, May 27, 2018, 5:11 PM James Dougherty
<jafrado@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Easy, and cheap too.
RTL2832 - https://www.adafruit.com/product/1497
<https://www.adafruit.com/product/1497>
Dump1090 - https://github.com/antirez/dump1090
<https://github.com/antirez/dump1090>
Linux laptop
--
I shall live in the house of the Lord all the days of my life.
Psalm 23:6cd <http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/bible/psalms/23:6>
