Mike Kramer: I like the way you approach things Mike; I’ve learned a lot from
you. I’m not a pilot. I know that more small airplanes are equipped with
transponders than years ago, but I’m not knowledgable about all the modes and
details. But others seem to have a good grasp on this subject and also are
aware of the limitations. (You can go to the bottom line now if you don’t have
a lot of time.)
So yeah, I would have to look through my notebooks to see how many different
things I’ve considered as being important safety items. It’s easily more than
10 things that I’m still working on. I think of potential adverse outcomes as
“bad” and Really Bad” and usually just focus efforts on the “Really Bad” ones.
To be completely honest, I don’t have a good idea on the probability of some
things happening. Some things, I’ve just witnessed and that’s enough. Like
seeing the small aircraft fly under the rocket on the parachute last year.
Examples include, the role and duties of the RSO and PM, rockets coming down
hot in the spectator area, visual indication at the pads that rows of pads are
armed, communication at the back pads, timing of launching rockets, revision of
the liability waiver, warning people about ballistic rockets, emergency
response procedures… And, those are just old ones. I have new ones too, and
this current subject is just a revisit! So, I can be annoying, and a pain in
the ass. Some people don’t think it’s worth hearing my concerns and
suggestions. And, at times I’ve taken a break, or should I say given you all a
break. ;-)
I posted because I was interested in any new technology. I think the subject
line of my first post on this was “Radar or Something Like It.” I was frankly
ignorant about aircraft transponder technology. Anyway, I think that’s why I
got the “oh, you again” response this time. But, what’s the harm asking? If
the Board tried something like this and it was too time consuming or provided
disappointing results that doesn’t mean my interest in this should go in the
“unsolicited ideas file” which I’m assuming is the trash can. Sometimes to
find new things that are useful, you need to ask others. For example, who
already knew about what James and TCC are using?
Bottom Line: The Board is doing a great job. I didn’t intend to suggest
otherwise. Even if there is always a Spotter, more people willing to do this,
or just more people aware of the need to help monitor air traffic and
encouraged to speak up this has been useful. And, I have a cool new app on my
iPhone. :-)
Richard Dierking
On May 29, 2018, at 7:36 AM, Michael Klett <xsive.guy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"5) Um, Thanks to the Board, and all the 'super volunteers' for all the work
that they do, to have as many launches (and good ones) as we do.
P.S. Lee it is ALWAYS a good time for a BBQ and campfire."
Dilly, Dilly!
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 6:11 AM, mnkramer.net <http://mnkramer.net/>
<kramer@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:kramer@xxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I like to think of safety, like most things in a very pragmatic way. (yes it
is bullet list time)
1) As a pilot, and someone that works in the industry, it is VERY hard for
most people to accurately judge the altitude of a commercial plane or
business jet. On Friday I was coming home from a trip and we flew DIRECTLY
over Lucerene. We were at 20-25K feet. I was thinking what altitude would
people from the ground think this was. I'm guessing much lower.
2) Same flight, we were probably above 300 mph ground speed at that point
that works out to be 5 miles per minute. What clear range would you use? 10
miles (2 minutes)? The number of false positives would either, A) stop most
launching, or B) be frequently enough as to start to get ignored....
3) Small Aircraft, different problem, this is more of a concern coming down
under chute than launching, minutes in the air, tough to see (small drogue).
Would ADS-B solve that? ADS-B is not a requirement for all of the airspace
over Lucerne. An extra spotter would be the best help (as someone who has
done LOTS of LCO duty).
4) AND THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE, the Pareto Principal. Think of ALL of
the potential safety things you have seen or can think about on the lake bed
EVERYTHING and pick which are more likely to result in an incident. Be
honest and realistic about it. Focus the efforts on the MOST LIKELY things.
I bet that an incident with an aircraft is MUCH lower of a probability than
other things you can think of. Things that can be addressed first. I would
give my thoughts off chat if interested.
5) Um, Thanks to the Board, and all the 'super volunteers' for all the work
that they do, to have as many launches (and good ones) as we do.
6) Lots of good ideas, not saying inaction is better than action but, I would
rather stop, plan and think before just reacting, ready aim fire, not ready
fire aim.
Mike Kramer
P.S. Lee it is ALWAYS a good time for a BBQ and campfire.
On 5/28/2018 11:12 PM, Michael Klett wrote:
I've enjoyed the chat of this thread in ROC chat. I don't have any answers.
Sorry. But more than once as LCO I have scanned the range and the sky and
said over the PA, "Range is clear. Sky is clear. Going in 5... 4... 3...
2... 1..." and pushed the go button. Watched the rocket go up and then saw
the plane and the contrails and wondered where it was 6 seconds before when
I scanned the sky and been very worried that I launched when I shouldn't
have.
A pair of thoughts. I wish more people would yell hold when there are
planes overhead that I missed. And learning that model rockets are clear to
fly when commercial airliners are overhead is nice to know. Thanks Allen.
My hat is off to the board that always puts on such great launches.
See you all at ROCStock. I'll have the light-up viking helmet on again
Saturday night.
Thanks,
Mike
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Richard Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
It’s good to hear Gregg’s and David EW’s comments. Maybe even David Smith’s
comments. :-)
Kurt, Allen, Mike, all understand me. I know that James has been in my head
and that must have been a scary experience. Anyway, these guys don’t get
too ruffled by what I say. Fortunately, they know my intentions (because
they are big guys) and the awkward way that I present myself at times.
So, there will probably be spotters and vigilance and lots of teamwork at
ROCstock that’s about 11 days from now. You will all prove that I’m wrong,
and I will love every minute.
I measure the importance of things by not only the chances, but by the
consequences. When something happens, like a rocket coming down ballistic
in the spectator area. Please take the time to try and determine why and
prevent it. Not, “I didn’t hear it hit metal, is everyone OK?, now going to
the middle row.”
There will always be risk, but for some things there needs to be a
definitive solution, not just acceptance.
See you at ROCstock. Now I have to take extra beer money.
Richard Dierking
On May 28, 2018, at 6:59 PM, David Erbas-White <derbas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:derbas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
On 5/28/2018 6:02 PM, Kurt Gugisberg wrote:
Does it count if I LCO on an inconsistent basis? <G>
I've always been a big one for making sure we don't launch if we see, or
hear, an aircraft flying over. It's not just the rules, it's that I don't
ever want to have to worry about someone in a low-flying plane being able
to take an iPhone shot off what looks like a rocket being fired at them
(even if it couldn't possibly have reached their altitude). There's too
much at stake (for the hobby) in my eyes than to treat it otherwise.
I'm probably considered a pain in the butt by some (okay, maybe more than
'some'), but if I hear a plane over the playa, and I see an LCO arming the
controllers, I'll start yelling 'HOLD' as loud as I can until we can
identify the aircraft and make CERTAIN that it's flying away from the
playa, or at an altitude that it can't POSSIBLY be able to take that 'bad
photo'. I know for a fact that some folks have gotten upset with me for
that shout-out, but at least 25% of the time it turns out that there IS an
aircraft in the area that we have to wait for, so I'm willing to put up
with the nasty looks the other 75% of the time...
Just last month (April launch) I was LCOing for a brief while, and at one
point I realized I had just launched a mid-power rocket as an aircraft went
overhead (I'd guess around 3000' AGL). There wasn't a chance of the rocket
hitting the plane, but there certainly WAS a chance of someone getting that
'bad photo', and I was upset with myself for not having seen the plane
beforehand. BTW, nobody commented on the plane until after I'd pushed the
button, either (I certainly would have appreciated it if someone HAD yelled
'HOLD' at me).
...and we haven't even talked about the flip side of the coin. I'm ticked
off at the pilots who choose to ignore the NOTAM that we call in for our
launches and either decide it doesn't apply to them, or they're too lazy to
check things out in the first place. We have, after all, been warning all
the pilots consistently for years about the launches -- yet we still get
more than our share of idiots who think it's 'cool' to see the rocket
launches up close from the air.
Now, do I think we need to have some sort of 'aircraft warning system' in
place other than our own eyes and ears? Nope. I just think we need to
apply the eyes/ears a little more conscientiously than we have been (and as
you'll note by my story from last month, I include myself in that...).
David Erbas-White
I, for one, would like to hear from everyone that LCOs on a consistent
basis as to how big an issue low flying aircraft has been for them.
Kurt
Sent from my iPhone
On May 28, 2018, at 2:31 PM, Allen Farrington <allen.farrington@xxxxxx
<mailto:allen.farrington@xxxxxx>> wrote:
Richard, since you just brought this up yesterday on the chat, I’m not
sure if anyone on board has had time to think about it. I, for one, have
been building rockets for ROCStock!
Are you concerned about commercial traffic or private/GA aircraft?
Allen
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Allen H. Farrington
http://www.allenfarrington.org ;<http://www.allenfarrington.org/>
818-653-2284
On May 28, 2018, at 10:21 AM, Richard Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:applerocketry@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Thank you for the info James. I don’t think the ROC Board is interested
in this at the moment. I’m going to use the flightradar24 app that
Andrew suggested. It’s interesting just watching the air traffic.
And, no, I wouldn’t watch the screen during a whole launch. But, before
I launch a rocket of mine, yes, I would check the app first. And, I
want to learn more about what it has to offer.
Just check out air traffic around the Hawaiian Islands with the eruption
on Hawaii. Interesting stuff, but sorry, going OT.
Richard
On May 27, 2018, at 5:58 PM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I didn't spend the launch monitoring my screen at LDRS.
And ... I spotted 4 airliners in our area at LDRS (two UA, 2 AA), all
at FL30 above us.
Maybe you saw the ADSB setup that David brought to LDRS, similar but
better UI.
I keep mine under the table. I also modified the code to alert me when
something is within 4nm
of our launch site. I can give you the patch if you're interested.
On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 5:34 PM, David Smith <davew6dps@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:davew6dps@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Easy and cheap, and if you want to spend the entire launch sitting and
monitoring your screen.
ROCstock would be a great launch to test it.
See how much useful information you actually get and report back.
Dave Smith
On Sun, May 27, 2018, 5:11 PM James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Easy, and cheap too.
RTL2832 - https://www.adafruit.com/product/1497 ;
<https://www.adafruit.com/product/1497>
Dump1090 - https://github.com/antirez/dump1090 ;
<https://github.com/antirez/dump1090>
Linux laptop
--
I shall live in the house of the Lord all the days of my life.
Psalm 23:6cd <http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/bible/psalms/23:6>
--
I shall live in the house of the Lord all the days of my life.
Psalm 23:6cd <http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/bible/psalms/23:6>
