[projectaon] Re: Comment Period for Lone Wolf 1-7
- From: Ingo Kloecker <projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 23:43:50 +0200
On Wednesday 21 September 2011, Jonathan Blake wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Ingo Kloecker
>
> <projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 21 September 2011, Benjamin I Krefetz wrote:
> >> I don't know why I've never noticed this before, but why aren't we
> >> placing commas after "e.g." and "i.e."? I looked for a definitive
> >> ruling in the Manual of Style, but there's no mention either way.
> >
> > I did a quick check of all books. "e.g." and "i.e." are never
> > followed by a comma. I think that pretty much answers the
> > question. Why come up with a definitive rule for something which,
> > de facto, is already standardized in the books?
>
> I think your search may have missed some examples from the printed of
> "eg," and "ie,".
Well, I only looked for "e.g." and "i.e." because we seem to have
replaced all occurrences of "eg" and "ie". Of course, I didn't check the
original text, but our editted text.
> In those cases, if I remember correctly, we dropped the commas when
> we added the commas based on the recommendation of Fowler. I'm
> surprised now to find that this seems to be the minority opinion:
>
> http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/ie-eg-oh-my.aspx
Well, in this article the author writes:
I've also been told that the commas are used less frequently in
Britain, and the only style guide I found that advised against commas
was Fowler's Modern English Usage, which has its roots in British
English. The bottom line is that in American English, I recommend
using a comma after i.e. and e.g.
Given that we are using British English for the books we probably made
the correct decision.
Here is another totally unauthorative reference
http://www.englishforums.com/English/CommaAfterIEAndOrEg/vngbb/post.htm
> This unimpeachable source says that both are acceptable:
>
> http://theoatmeal.com/comics/ie
Great comic! The examples are hilarious.
> Personally, I find the comma either fussy-looking or arguably wrong
> depending on context. To take an example from the Grey Star the
> Wizard, we currently have:
>
> "... section of your Action Chart. (e.g. if your pencil fell on the
> number 4 in ..."
>
> I think the following looks too fussy with too much punctuation going
> on:
>
> "... section of your Action Chart. (e.g., if your pencil fell on the
> number 4 in ..."
Hmm. As far as I understand the comic you have three options.
Option 1: Use parentheses. In this case "e.g."/"i.e." are not followed
by a comma. (At least, that's what I understand from the illustration.)
Options 2 and 3: Use commas. In this case "e.g."/"i.e." may be followed
by a comma.
> (BTW, we really should capitalize that as "E.g." or move the
> parenthetical sentence inside the previous sentence or something.)
Hmm, if I remember correctly, then I learned that one should never start
a sentence with "e.g." (or "E.g."). Instead, one should use the non-
abbreviated form "For example, ..." at the start of a sentence.
> In the case of "i.e." I would argue that it's usually wrong to use a
> comma because "i.e." translates as "that is" and so the comma
> separates a verb from its complement which is a no-no.
>
> We should add an entry in the Manual of Style. Any objections to the
> status quo?
FWIW, I had a look into my Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary of
Current English. It doesn't say anything about the usage of "e.g.", but
reading the text of the Introduction I made the following observations:
- All abbreviations appear to be used without any dots.
Examples: e g (with a thin space between 'e' and 'g'), etc, ...
- "for example" (in parentheses) is followed by a comma, if a full
sentence follows. "for example" is not followed by a comma, if a list of
items follows.
Examples:
"(for example, how to spell the plurals of nouns)"
"(for example ex-, extra-, and under-, as in [...])"
"For example city, plural cities."
"For example, in the entry for white, [...] can be used as [...]."
- "e g" is only used rarely. The authors definitely preferred the non-
abbreviated "for example".
Example:
"[...] anomalous verbs (e g can, could)"
So, if we wanted to go for hard-core Oxford English then we'd probably
have to standardize on "e g" (without dots) in parentheses with or
without following comma depending on the context.
Regards,
Ingo
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