Actually I find myself very much on the forefront of things. The development of NVDA has been a definate step in the right direction of which I am involved. The people I involve myself with that try to find free or cheaper alternatives to the high cost assistive technologies. These sorts of things I personally have researched for over 5 years now. Perhaps a better study would be to find a way to get the sighted world to talk to the blind personally and try to figure out what they need to make their lives better instead of calling us all a niche market. Perhaps a better way to do things is for the NFB to take a look at the amount of money they are spending on lawsuits for the electric car and invest in 3 dollar deer whistles to put on the cars so they make noise. Or perhaps they can give up on their old slate and stylus credo and modernize it a bit to support some of the technologies that would actually better our lives. Perhaps if they pursued the FCC a bit more they could even get all of that digital crap for the average consumer to also work for the blind with out having to spend 400 dollars on a cd player just because it has a text to speech voice on it. I think they call that one the Victor Reader. Perhaps this study can make another answering machine that beeps when we have a message instead of telling us what time they called because it would make it cheaper to produce. Hey possibly it could make another 1500 dollar screen reader only this one could just beep instead of talking us to death. Perhaps then we the blind could develop our own language called beepish and we can come across as even stranger to the sighted world than we already do. Or perhaps we should actually do like the deaf community did in the 70's and 80's and march on Washington DC demanding equal access. It did after all work for them. Or I guess we can do like we always do and not question the benefit of the money being spen because as far as we care as long as it has the label of for the blind attached to it it has to be good for us. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 5:12 PM Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader Question
Where his study goes is probably unknowable as of now as it is only a piece of the puzzle as I've described in a previous message. Regarding the benefit to human kind, your approach sounds a little like the comments Henter Joyce and Window Eyes probably heard back in the early 90s. That is, I'm sure there were many nay sayers stating that there were only very few blind people using computers--in fact, there were very few personal computers in homes. I remember some marketing specialist a number of years ago saying that personal computers were just a hobby and that it would blow over soon--man was that guy wrong. No doubt HJ and GW programmers reviewed lots of research literature to establish the best approach to take to developing their products. This would have avoided them reinventing the wheel and as a result saving tons and tons of money. Without research no doubt the development of what some hundred thousand plus screen reader users are taking advantage of today would not have happened for the next foreseeable years. I find it hard to understand your reluctance to pursue scientific research; especially research that will benefit our small population of computer users. I will grant you the notion that lots of research seems useless on the face of it, but the goal of the research probably wasn't to produce a product but rather to find another piece of the puzzle of all human knowledge and abilities. You absolutely do not have to contribute at all whatsoever to any type of research and can simply wait until the time comes when the research data on a given topic is compiled and made available for you to put to use. I'm sensing your much more of an end user and don't understand nor have an appreciation for how the tools you use on a daily basis are produced. In other words, you don't care how the computer was built, all you care about is if the computer works or not. This is fine, but other people have different interests in the field of computer sciences, so why not let them pursue their interests? I do mean to state this with respect as you are a good contributor to this list and the scripting list.Matthew----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 2:25 PM Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader QuestionOK so then my question is, what does this study hope to prove. What benefit is it going to be to human kind. Does it say that our stereo receivers should just go ahead and print the right speaker volume on the digital display but for the blind just beep and they will be able to figure it out? Does it say for our Ipods all they have to do is add a sound for traversing the folder trees and we will know exactly what artist and song it is because we are blind and can hear better than most? Does it say when the programs are compiling we can tell what output line on the compile is not actually compiled the way it should be even though it did not return an error? If he really wants to save a little money and try this out, he could just download NVDA and set the speech mode to beeps and see if he can figure out where he is with his monitor turned off. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 4:03 PM Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader QuestionWhen cooking a turkey, wouldn't your theory of common sense indicate that rather than cooking it at 350 degrees for 4 hours, there's a faster way, so hell, why not bumpt the temperature upto 700 degrees for 2 hours, right? Rather than spending money to mass produce automobiles, why didn't Ford himself use his common sense and save tons of cash by simply using bigger and faster horses? Why buy shoes if our ancestors walked barefoot for about 2 million years before Ken Cole came along. Blindness related note takers, whatever with that, just use your trusty old slate and stylus, right?Matthew----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 1:46 PM Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader QuestionBut this study has been done. It is called the theory of common sense and I just feel that money like that can be spent on much more effective studies rather than trying to find out if a push mower is easier to use than a self propelled one. Yep there was even a study done for that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader QuestionHa ha ha, ha ha ha! Very clever. I agree to some extent, but your individual preference is not what this researcher is seeking anymore than whether you specifically prefer a yellow or blue M and M due to the peanuts inside. To my understanding he is researching the most effective way of programming with the use of audio cues, and not researching whether audio cues are more effective than no audio cues--although its possible he might make this discovery along the way. I don't know the extent of your training in research methods, but I sense you're not aware of the vast range of methods of researching various phenomenon whether or not it is of practical significance in the real world. Even if his research goes absolutely nowhere in terms of being used by blind individuals in the workplace, he will have contributed another piece of the entire human research puzzle, which as we all know, his piece would have great significance to blind people as there just isn't a whole lot of research out there in the psychological literature having to do specifically with blind populations--in comparison to the general population of course.Matthew----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader QuestionBut Mat don't you want to program to Beethoven? It is of course much more informative than some drone old text to speech voice telling you what button you are focused on. After all they have given us study paper after study paper supporting this theory. And before anyone gets in a rant about what I just said. Keep in mind that all of the studies in the world are not going to work for everyone. I agree if it were at all possible to turn the drone text to speech off and just point and click my way to clicking bliss, I would surely do it, but for me personally adding sound cues is not the answer for me. If braille displays were not so over priced I would even consider buying one of those just to be able to hear the wonderful sound of silence again. But alas, my only 2 choices at this point are to get my eyesight back or turn it off for the sound of silence. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader QuestionThough this musical thing might seem to some as a possible solution, just how long will the blind programmer's inner ear be able to handle such a daily audio assault? That is, because we must always be cognizant of the end goals of the research findings, and because the ultimate goal is to develop a programming environment for the workplace--I think, fellow sighted programmers will not tolerate the endless noise coming from the blind programmer's cubical. The logical solution would be to give the blind programmer a set of headphones. Now the issue will turn to the amount of time the blind programmer will be able to tolerate constant physical pressure to the ears caused by headphones whether ear buds or otherwise. More importantly, just how long will the blind person be able to program when there is a constant assault of music and other incredibly noisy information bombarding and possibly shredding one's tympanic membrane, malleus/incus/stapes, oval window, basilar membrane, cochlea, and so on. I would be most worried about wear and tear on the basilar membrane as it's "wooly carpeting" will begin wearing out like the worn out area on the carpet where your deskchair might be sitting on. Then you might have other issues such as headaches from either and extended periods of headphone use. You might also have factors such as mental fatigue from not only having to stay focused on your programming task, but your brain will experience "cortical attrition" due to the constant bombardment of sound which the sighted programmer will not have to deal with.Yes, its true we don't have much choices in the matter when it comes to audio output for the completion of our tasks, but I think we can design choices in terms of the type of output we can utilize for best results, and I don't think music and various beeps and sounds will do for all. Maybe once the foundation of this programming research has been normalized, there will be enough room to consider individual differences and act accordingly by developing different schemes by which one can use in order to perform for very long periods of time.Now that I think about it, you might want to try a preliminary reversal design to assess hearing before and after extended exposure to your IV.Thanks, Matthew----- Original Message ----- From: "jaffar" <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader QuestionHi Andreas. I have followed this thread with most interest and congratulate and most definitely support you on what you are doing. A few years back, I took up music therapy as one of my music composition options. One of the things we tend to forget and take for granted is that Language, though a very issential basis of our communications is an evolutionary concept. Our ancestors from far back used sounds as their primary source of communication. Unborn babies respond to sounds they pick from the mother's womb, and when they are born, respond positively to the soothing coos of those around them, or nagatively to noises their impulses deem frightening and disturbing. I have not ceased to be amazed at the responses and emotions that music can potentially arouse out of those who have undergone my music therapy classes. What issentially is music anyway but organized sound? And what is computer programming anyway but a series of instructions to make a software work a pc? As a musician and a programmer, I have always seen a computer program and a music composition in the same light, that is to say, in both cases, we are issentially putting unrelated fragments together to make them work. Putting it all back into context, I wonder if during the debugging process, the sounds, ,music, or whatever is sound related to make this effectively work could be sequentially arranged. For example, When the debugging process starts, a sort of musical chord could be initiated. Then while the debugging is going on, a continuous series of notes or chymes would follow to indicate that the process was flowing. In the midst of it, if an error was spotted by the debugger, perhaps a series of urgent sequence of notes would follow each other rapidly. At this juncture, the user would be allowed to pause the debugger to try to spot the problem, then continue when the problem has been resolved. Once the debug process had been finished, perhaps a triumphant chord would follow to announce that the debug process had succeeded. If there was a real serious error, and the debug process cannot continue, then a Diminished chord, which in music would signify some form of conflict could be initiated. In this way, an organized structure of sound, or music would be of real use. Perhaps you could think this over. I'd like to read your response on this. Cheers! and thanks for a very good project. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andreas Stefik" <stefika@xxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 8:55 AM Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader QuestionDonal,Thanks for this fantastic email! I would love to get a copy of any of the work you've mentioned if you happen to have electronic copies. Iknow the work of Stevens and Raman "relatively well" but I'mdefinitely no guru on the details of using prosodic cues to benefit comprehension of mathematics. We've considered adding prosodic cuesinto our debugger, but as you might imagine, there are lots ofpossible design decisions to explore. Right now we're focusing on how to measure comprehension of the auditory cues (empirically), and theeffect that can have on a myriad of computer programming related issues, right now mostly debugging issues.Anyway, if you have any work you would like to share, I'd love to read it. Please feel free to send it to my normal email box, and thanks forthe great response! Andreas __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ NOD32 2681 (20071123) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ NOD32 2682 (20071123) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ NOD32 2682 (20071123) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ NOD32 2682 (20071123) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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