The problem in my opinion is that the geeks have inherited the Web at least if not the Earth.
windows has a large variety of controls all of which are standard and well understood by both sighted users and by screen readers. For some reason, developers aren't satisfied with that, they have to tinker or reinvent the user interface. One consequence is that both the intended sighted users are confused but so can we become confused.
Rearranging the positions of gears in a standard transmission to continue your analogy would make drivers very uncomfortable and even probably dangerous. Further, the controls in the interface should behave as expected. Just ask Toyota and those who have had unexpected accelerator behavior.
If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:51 AMSubject: Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader users?
Michael, your comparisons might hold up in the theoretical sense, but a reader, social security, and sighted guides REQUIRE the assistance of other persons to make them work. The only thing someone has to do to use Facebook chat is, pardon the harshness, open the damn manual of their AT and learn how to use it. So many blind people are woefully ignorant of their AT and its features, and many accessibility complaints, like this one, are founded on this fragmented knowledge. Any reasonably competent user of either Window Eyes or JAWS I'm sure can figure out the pattern of screen redraws necessary to make not only Facebook chat but all the javascript events on Facebook very accessible. It would be nice if all applications were accessible out of the box with screen readers built into the OS that were provided for us. This is Utopia, and Utopia does not exist. And while I understand your concerns from the access prospective, remember that if Facebook's developers spend a bunch of time meeting accessibility complaints that could just as easily be solved by users learning their interface to the computer properly, then they can spend more time on general features for the site. I am a blind Facebook user, yes, but I am a Facebook user first and foremost. I want the actual site to continue to improve, not just its accessibility. If the interface were truly inaccessible or accessible only through some seriously complicated workarounds, I would gladly sign the petition, trying also to give Facebook's developers all the context they need to fix the accessibility flaws with as little effort as possible on their end. This is not the case. The chat is perfectly accessible, even with the clunky ways screen readers presently interface with the web browsers in common use. Even sighted users have to get used to their interface and how it works, and there're a million petitions from sighted users on Facebook complaining about the interface. Most of them, like this one, are started because someone didn't inform themselves on exactly what they were dealing with and how it might be customized to work to their advantage.Another point of contension I must make is your assertion that scripts or mouse pointer access does not equal accessibility. The developers of the screen readers put these features in there for a reason, namely that they allow accessibility where it was previously not available. Screen readers are no trivial investment, at least on the Windows side. If you are going to pay $800+ for a screen reader, you should take the time to learn to use its features. If you know that the screen reader replaces your monitor and will be the bridge between you and everything you do on the computer, an essential tool in the 21st century, then I don't think it too unreasonable to expect users to spend the same time learning to drive their screen reader the way someone might learn the interface of a manually operating motor vehicle. Insert pun about the information superhighway here.All idealism aside, not everything is going to be given to you on a silver platter. This is not the case for us, and it is not the case for anybody. The person most motivated to fix things like this is the one it directly effects, and that is in this case us. If I'm a Facebook developer and I see the many perfectly reasonable means of accessing the chat that have been presented in this thread, including my assertion that even the native browser interface is already quite accessible, , there is no way I'm investing time into the redundant work of "making it accessible". A much more sensible petition might be to call on Facebook to hire devoted accessibility personell to their rapidly growing staff. But this one, in my humble opinion, is a little frivolous.On 4/18/2010 10:14 AM, Michael Malver wrote:Thanks for doing this. I am frustrated by people who argue that workarounds equal accessibility. A reader is a work around to having accessible books. Should we write tocongress and tell them to stop producing books for the blind because thereis a perfectly good work around out there? Social security is a work around to successful employment.Should we encourage companies not to hire disabled people since there is away for the disabled to make money?Going sighted guide is a workaround for traveling independently. Should weencourage everyone to use sighted guide all the time? If I can't use a product out of the box without having to use specialized features, such as the mouse cursor, it is not accessible.People who confuse useable with accessible frustrate me as well. You might be able to make a script to cause an inaccessible program to be useable, butthat script in my view doesn't negate a company figuring out how to make their software to run out of the box. A script is only good for thespecific screen reader for which it was designed. Accessible software makesthe tool useable for everyone. Just because you may choose not to use something yourself is no reason todeny other people having access to it. If you want to use AIM instead offacebook to talk to your facebook buddies, that's great, but please helpthose of us who want the ability to use facebook chat and don't understandhow to make the chat automatically speak gain more access by signing thepetition which will grant us the kind of access we expect to websites in the21st century. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bryan GaraventaSent: Friday, April 16, 2010 7:35 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxxSubject: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader users?Hi, I thought I'd pass this on since it may be of interest to fellow screenreader users. Since there really is no reason why Facebook can't add screen readeraccessible functionality to the live chat feature, and it would be nice to be able to communicate with family and friends using the same features thateveryone else uses, I created the fan page at http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Make-Face-Books-Live-Chat-Accessible-to-Bli nd-Users/109349762439299?ref=tsIn the hope that, if enough people become fans of the idea, it will act as a petition to get Facebook's attention. So if you use Facebook, and would liketo see live chat become an accessible feature, please consider becoming a fan of the page. The UI implementation that I've proposed through the fan page does the following: 1) Automatically announces the latest message as soon as it arrives, regardless where the focus is positioned on the page; 2) Is fully accessible using JAWS 11 with IE7-8 and Firefox3; 3) Is fully accessible using NVDA with IE8 and Firefox3; 4) Can be visually modified using CSS to fit any display without impairing automatic accessibility. Best wishes, Bryan __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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