Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader users?

  • From: "Alphonso McFadden" <techsales2@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:57:47 -0400

right!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader users?


Tell that to people who wrote "Echo", "Asap", "SBridge", and many of the
other ground breaking screen readers.  They didn't say Oh cry cry I don't
have an API in the case of one of them I know he used a debugger and
sometimes his daughter to read the op codes till he got it working.  Maybe
it's time to grow some non-wining coders again. Some that say fine it don't work then I will make it work and if you don't like it fix it and give me a
good API.  Tylor you are a new coder but even you should know that if I
wanted to I could put line numbers on Notepad even though Microsoft didn't
do it.  I could actually make system calls to do it and it would take me
about 20 minutes.  True if I had to figure it out the first time it would
take me much longer but the ability is there even if the software was not
designed for it.

Face book is a much higher level interface and I truly believe this guy can
do it not only can do it but it would be a rather simple interface to make
compared to what we collectively have been through in the past with hardware
and software access.  So if he wants to do it let him.

Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tyler
Littlefield
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 1:29 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader
users?

Ken,
It's people that throw a fit over things that don't become accessible and
just work when you snap your fingers that break things for us. If someone
wants to write a more accessible Linux, they have all the code, go for it.
But making fb work when the person doesn't know the commands to interface
with the system like they should, as was already pointed out requires that
the person go through the facebook team. That means that they have to listen
to a complaint about the chat not being accessible, and if he can't figure
out how to use it I doubt he's going to throw up a bunch of ideas for how it might work better, and it'll just end up as most of the unaccessible program
complaints stand, "Your program isn't accessible, fix it." Then when we do
have a real accessibility problem they're less likely to deal with it if
someone starts some anti-facebook movement and a bunch of people with lack
of knowledge on the commands to interface with the page message. I've seen
people get a bunch of others together, and the idea is "lets all tell them
in our own message that this isn't accessible," so they get a ton of emails, usually consisting of nothing but the complaint. Just my two cents, I would rather not scare developers away, especially developers willing to help from
something when their assistance could be used later on.
Thanks,
Tyler Littlefield
http://tds-solutions.net
Twitter: sorressean

On Apr 18, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Ken Perry wrote:

Actually don't blame the geeks it's the brainless inheriting the web that
causes this. If it was the geeks it could be a console or a square button application. The problem is people want it to look like a radio or in the case of chat they want it to look like pretty pieces of paper separated by the people you are scribbling to and they want to be able to do everything
from talk to it to write to it by hand.  We as coders are babying our
users
because when they wine and cry for that special affect where a message
bounces in from one side of the screen and lands in the inbox from them we actually do it. We do it because we know they will be more than likely to buy that cool software because not only can they chat with it but they can
throw small dwarfs at each other thousands of miles apart.  If the world
was
more simple the software would do what it should look boring and work
perfectly.  Hmmm what fun would that be?  I think instead we should add
things like research features to a screen reader Oh and how about a key to
tell us the weather in a screen reader.  Hmm Heck I think we should even
write a twitter client in a screen readers API and while we are at it lets
make a screen reader script that allows us to play solitaire....

Oh well geeks aren't the problem the users are the problem because they
have
learned that these computer thingy's can do everything.  The problem is
just
because a computer can do just about anything does not mean that everyone
can do everything they can do.

Now it might just be my boring opinion but you all have the right to read
my
opinion so here it is.   Leave these folks that want  to make a better
interface to something alone. If the guy wants to write a blind interface
to warcraft more power to him.  Just because Facebook is accessible to 12
of
us doesn't mean that he shouldn't make it better. Take Linux for example. I bitched at the guy making Vinux. I told him what the hell are you doing
making yet another flavor of Linux why not just put work into current
flavors.  The simple fact is because until  it is proven that it can be
done
better it won't be.  Now with vinux 3.0 beta I can finally say there is a
Linux out there that is stable enough to be used by a totally blind person with no lag on the screen reader. I couldn't say that before so it's good
he didn't listen to me, and  Not only that but some of the stuff he has
done
is now being moved back into Ubuntu because it's been proven.  Just think
if
this person makes facebook chat so cool and usable by the blind and it
talks
really well you might find some of the changes in the product in years to
come because he proved it could be done and it could be useful to more
than
just the blind community. Look at speech on IPods that was first done for
blind people but some sited people found it was easier to switch song to
song when doing 120 miles an hour in a car they didn't even have to look
at
the screen go figure.  So leave the guy alone let him make the next best
way
to access Facebook chat maybe it will make a difference maybe it won't but
if he doesn't try then who will?  Accessibility is one thing usability is
another.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 12:45 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader
users?

The problem in my opinion is that the geeks have inherited the Web at
least
if not the Earth.

windows has a large variety of controls all of which are standard and well

understood by both sighted users and by screen readers. For some reason,
developers aren't satisfied with that, they have to tinker or reinvent the

user interface. One consequence is that both the intended sighted users
are
confused but so can we become confused.

Rearranging the positions of gears in a standard transmission to continue
your analogy would make drivers very uncomfortable and even probably
dangerous. Further, the controls in the interface should behave as
expected.

Just ask Toyota and those who have had unexpected accelerator behavior.

If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader
users?


Michael, your comparisons might hold up in the theoretical sense, but a
reader, social security, and sighted guides REQUIRE the assistance of
other persons to make them work. The only thing someone has to do to use
Facebook chat is, pardon the harshness, open the damn manual of their AT
and learn how to use it. So many blind people are woefully ignorant of
their AT and its features, and many accessibility complaints, like this
one, are founded on this fragmented knowledge. Any reasonably competent
user of either Window Eyes or JAWS I'm sure can figure out the pattern of

screen redraws necessary to make not only Facebook chat but all the
javascript events on Facebook very accessible. It would be nice if all
applications were accessible out of the box with screen readers built
into

the OS that were provided for us. This is Utopia, and Utopia does not
exist. And while I understand your concerns from the access prospective,
remember that if Facebook's developers spend a bunch of time meeting
accessibility complaints that could just as easily be solved by users
learning their interface to the computer properly, then  they can spend
more time on general features for the site. I am a blind Facebook user,
yes, but I am a Facebook user first and foremost. I want the actual site
to continue to improve, not just its accessibility. If the interface were

truly inaccessible or accessible only through some seriously complicated
workarounds, I would gladly sign the petition, trying also to give
Facebook's developers all the context they need to fix the accessibility
flaws with as little effort as possible on their end. This is not the
case. The chat is perfectly accessible, even with the clunky ways screen
readers presently interface with the web browsers in common use. Even
sighted users have to get used to their interface and how it works, and
there're a million petitions from sighted users on Facebook complaining
about the interface. Most of them, like this one, are started because
someone didn't inform themselves on exactly what they were dealing with
and how it might be customized to work to their advantage.

  Another point of contension I must make is your assertion that scripts
or mouse pointer access does not equal accessibility. The developers of
the screen readers put these features in there for a reason, namely that
they allow accessibility where it was previously not available. Screen
readers are no trivial investment, at least on the Windows side. If you
are going to pay $800+ for a screen reader, you should take the time to
learn to use its features. If you know that the screen reader replaces
your monitor and will be the bridge between you and everything you do on
the computer, an essential tool in the 21st century, then I don't think
it

too unreasonable to expect users to spend the same time learning to drive

their screen reader the way someone might learn the interface of a
manually operating motor vehicle. Insert pun about the information
superhighway here.

  All idealism aside, not everything is going to be given to you on a
silver platter. This is not the case for us, and it is not the case for
anybody. The person most motivated to fix things like this is the one it
directly effects, and that is in this case us. If I'm a Facebook
developer

and I see the many perfectly reasonable means of accessing the chat that
have been presented in this thread, including my assertion that even the
native browser interface is already quite accessible, , there is no way
I'm investing time into the redundant work of "making it accessible". A
much more sensible petition might be to call on Facebook to hire devoted
accessibility personell to their rapidly growing staff. But this one, in
my humble opinion, is a little frivolous.

On 4/18/2010 10:14 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
Thanks for doing this.
I am frustrated by people who argue that workarounds equal
accessibility.
A reader is a work around to having accessible books.  Should we write
to
congress and tell them to stop producing books for the blind because
there
is a perfectly good work around out there?
Social security is a work around to successful employment.
Should we encourage companies not to hire disabled people since there is

a
way for the disabled to make money?
Going sighted guide is a workaround for traveling independently. Should

we
encourage everyone to use sighted guide all the time?

If I can't use a product out of the box without having to use
specialized
features, such as the mouse cursor, it is not accessible.
People who confuse useable with accessible frustrate me as well.  You
might
be able to make a script to cause an inaccessible program to be useable,

but
that script in my view doesn't negate a company figuring out how to make
their software to run out of the box.  A script is only good for the
specific screen reader for which it was designed.  Accessible software
makes
the tool useable for everyone.

Just because you may choose not to use something yourself is no reason
to
deny other people having  access to it.  If you want to use AIM instead
of
facebook to talk to your facebook buddies, that's great, but please help
those of us who want the ability to use facebook chat and don't
understand
how to make the chat automatically speak gain more access by signing the petition which will grant us the kind of access we expect to websites in

the
21st century.


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bryan
Garaventa
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 7:35 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader
users?

Hi, I thought I'd pass this on since it may be of interest to fellow
screen
reader users.

Since there really is no reason why Facebook can't add screen reader
accessible functionality to the live chat feature, and it would be nice
to
be able to communicate with family and friends using the same features
that
everyone else uses, I created the fan page at



http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Make-Face-Books-Live-Chat-Accessible-to-Bli
nd-Users/109349762439299?ref=ts

In the hope that, if enough people become fans of the idea, it will act
as a
petition to get Facebook's attention. So if you use Facebook, and would
like
to see live chat become an accessible feature, please consider becoming
a
fan of the page.

The UI implementation that I've proposed through the fan page does the
following:
1) Automatically announces the latest message as soon as it arrives,
regardless where the focus is positioned on the page;
    2) Is fully accessible using JAWS 11 with IE7-8 and Firefox3;
    3) Is fully accessible using NVDA with IE8 and Firefox3;
    4) Can be visually modified using CSS to fit any display without
impairing automatic accessibility.

Best wishes,
Bryan

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