RE: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader users?
- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 16:06:59 -0400
Tell that to people who wrote "Echo", "Asap", "SBridge", and many of the
other ground breaking screen readers. They didn't say Oh cry cry I don't
have an API in the case of one of them I know he used a debugger and
sometimes his daughter to read the op codes till he got it working. Maybe
it's time to grow some non-wining coders again. Some that say fine it don't
work then I will make it work and if you don't like it fix it and give me a
good API. Tylor you are a new coder but even you should know that if I
wanted to I could put line numbers on Notepad even though Microsoft didn't
do it. I could actually make system calls to do it and it would take me
about 20 minutes. True if I had to figure it out the first time it would
take me much longer but the ability is there even if the software was not
designed for it.
Face book is a much higher level interface and I truly believe this guy can
do it not only can do it but it would be a rather simple interface to make
compared to what we collectively have been through in the past with hardware
and software access. So if he wants to do it let him.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tyler
Littlefield
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 1:29 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader
users?
Ken,
It's people that throw a fit over things that don't become accessible and
just work when you snap your fingers that break things for us. If someone
wants to write a more accessible Linux, they have all the code, go for it.
But making fb work when the person doesn't know the commands to interface
with the system like they should, as was already pointed out requires that
the person go through the facebook team. That means that they have to listen
to a complaint about the chat not being accessible, and if he can't figure
out how to use it I doubt he's going to throw up a bunch of ideas for how it
might work better, and it'll just end up as most of the unaccessible program
complaints stand, "Your program isn't accessible, fix it." Then when we do
have a real accessibility problem they're less likely to deal with it if
someone starts some anti-facebook movement and a bunch of people with lack
of knowledge on the commands to interface with the page message. I've seen
people get a bunch of others together, and the idea is "lets all tell them
in our own message that this isn't accessible," so they get a ton of emails,
usually consisting of nothing but the complaint. Just my two cents, I would
rather not scare developers away, especially developers willing to help from
something when their assistance could be used later on.
Thanks,
Tyler Littlefield
http://tds-solutions.net
Twitter: sorressean
On Apr 18, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Ken Perry wrote:
> Actually don't blame the geeks it's the brainless inheriting the web that
> causes this. If it was the geeks it could be a console or a square button
> application. The problem is people want it to look like a radio or in the
> case of chat they want it to look like pretty pieces of paper separated by
> the people you are scribbling to and they want to be able to do everything
> from talk to it to write to it by hand. We as coders are babying our
users
> because when they wine and cry for that special affect where a message
> bounces in from one side of the screen and lands in the inbox from them we
> actually do it. We do it because we know they will be more than likely to
> buy that cool software because not only can they chat with it but they can
> throw small dwarfs at each other thousands of miles apart. If the world
was
> more simple the software would do what it should look boring and work
> perfectly. Hmmm what fun would that be? I think instead we should add
> things like research features to a screen reader Oh and how about a key to
> tell us the weather in a screen reader. Hmm Heck I think we should even
> write a twitter client in a screen readers API and while we are at it lets
> make a screen reader script that allows us to play solitaire....
>
> Oh well geeks aren't the problem the users are the problem because they
have
> learned that these computer thingy's can do everything. The problem is
just
> because a computer can do just about anything does not mean that everyone
> can do everything they can do.
>
> Now it might just be my boring opinion but you all have the right to read
my
> opinion so here it is. Leave these folks that want to make a better
> interface to something alone. If the guy wants to write a blind interface
> to warcraft more power to him. Just because Facebook is accessible to 12
of
> us doesn't mean that he shouldn't make it better. Take Linux for example.
> I bitched at the guy making Vinux. I told him what the hell are you doing
> making yet another flavor of Linux why not just put work into current
> flavors. The simple fact is because until it is proven that it can be
done
> better it won't be. Now with vinux 3.0 beta I can finally say there is a
> Linux out there that is stable enough to be used by a totally blind person
> with no lag on the screen reader. I couldn't say that before so it's good
> he didn't listen to me, and Not only that but some of the stuff he has
done
> is now being moved back into Ubuntu because it's been proven. Just think
if
> this person makes facebook chat so cool and usable by the blind and it
talks
> really well you might find some of the changes in the product in years to
> come because he proved it could be done and it could be useful to more
than
> just the blind community. Look at speech on IPods that was first done for
> blind people but some sited people found it was easier to switch song to
> song when doing 120 miles an hour in a car they didn't even have to look
at
> the screen go figure. So leave the guy alone let him make the next best
way
> to access Facebook chat maybe it will make a difference maybe it won't but
> if he doesn't try then who will? Accessibility is one thing usability is
> another.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 12:45 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader
> users?
>
> The problem in my opinion is that the geeks have inherited the Web at
least
> if not the Earth.
>
> windows has a large variety of controls all of which are standard and well
> understood by both sighted users and by screen readers. For some reason,
> developers aren't satisfied with that, they have to tinker or reinvent the
> user interface. One consequence is that both the intended sighted users
are
> confused but so can we become confused.
>
> Rearranging the positions of gears in a standard transmission to continue
> your analogy would make drivers very uncomfortable and even probably
> dangerous. Further, the controls in the interface should behave as
expected.
>
> Just ask Toyota and those who have had unexpected accelerator behavior.
>
> If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:51 AM
> Subject: Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader
> users?
>
>
>> Michael, your comparisons might hold up in the theoretical sense, but a
>> reader, social security, and sighted guides REQUIRE the assistance of
>> other persons to make them work. The only thing someone has to do to use
>> Facebook chat is, pardon the harshness, open the damn manual of their AT
>> and learn how to use it. So many blind people are woefully ignorant of
>> their AT and its features, and many accessibility complaints, like this
>> one, are founded on this fragmented knowledge. Any reasonably competent
>> user of either Window Eyes or JAWS I'm sure can figure out the pattern of
>> screen redraws necessary to make not only Facebook chat but all the
>> javascript events on Facebook very accessible. It would be nice if all
>> applications were accessible out of the box with screen readers built
into
>
>> the OS that were provided for us. This is Utopia, and Utopia does not
>> exist. And while I understand your concerns from the access prospective,
>> remember that if Facebook's developers spend a bunch of time meeting
>> accessibility complaints that could just as easily be solved by users
>> learning their interface to the computer properly, then they can spend
>> more time on general features for the site. I am a blind Facebook user,
>> yes, but I am a Facebook user first and foremost. I want the actual site
>> to continue to improve, not just its accessibility. If the interface were
>> truly inaccessible or accessible only through some seriously complicated
>> workarounds, I would gladly sign the petition, trying also to give
>> Facebook's developers all the context they need to fix the accessibility
>> flaws with as little effort as possible on their end. This is not the
>> case. The chat is perfectly accessible, even with the clunky ways screen
>> readers presently interface with the web browsers in common use. Even
>> sighted users have to get used to their interface and how it works, and
>> there're a million petitions from sighted users on Facebook complaining
>> about the interface. Most of them, like this one, are started because
>> someone didn't inform themselves on exactly what they were dealing with
>> and how it might be customized to work to their advantage.
>>
>> Another point of contension I must make is your assertion that scripts
>> or mouse pointer access does not equal accessibility. The developers of
>> the screen readers put these features in there for a reason, namely that
>> they allow accessibility where it was previously not available. Screen
>> readers are no trivial investment, at least on the Windows side. If you
>> are going to pay $800+ for a screen reader, you should take the time to
>> learn to use its features. If you know that the screen reader replaces
>> your monitor and will be the bridge between you and everything you do on
>> the computer, an essential tool in the 21st century, then I don't think
it
>
>> too unreasonable to expect users to spend the same time learning to drive
>> their screen reader the way someone might learn the interface of a
>> manually operating motor vehicle. Insert pun about the information
>> superhighway here.
>>
>> All idealism aside, not everything is going to be given to you on a
>> silver platter. This is not the case for us, and it is not the case for
>> anybody. The person most motivated to fix things like this is the one it
>> directly effects, and that is in this case us. If I'm a Facebook
developer
>
>> and I see the many perfectly reasonable means of accessing the chat that
>> have been presented in this thread, including my assertion that even the
>> native browser interface is already quite accessible, , there is no way
>> I'm investing time into the redundant work of "making it accessible". A
>> much more sensible petition might be to call on Facebook to hire devoted
>> accessibility personell to their rapidly growing staff. But this one, in
>> my humble opinion, is a little frivolous.
>>
>> On 4/18/2010 10:14 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
>>> Thanks for doing this.
>>> I am frustrated by people who argue that workarounds equal
accessibility.
>>> A reader is a work around to having accessible books. Should we write
to
>>> congress and tell them to stop producing books for the blind because
>>> there
>>> is a perfectly good work around out there?
>>> Social security is a work around to successful employment.
>>> Should we encourage companies not to hire disabled people since there is
>>> a
>>> way for the disabled to make money?
>>> Going sighted guide is a workaround for traveling independently. Should
>>> we
>>> encourage everyone to use sighted guide all the time?
>>>
>>> If I can't use a product out of the box without having to use
specialized
>>> features, such as the mouse cursor, it is not accessible.
>>> People who confuse useable with accessible frustrate me as well. You
>>> might
>>> be able to make a script to cause an inaccessible program to be useable,
>>> but
>>> that script in my view doesn't negate a company figuring out how to make
>>> their software to run out of the box. A script is only good for the
>>> specific screen reader for which it was designed. Accessible software
>>> makes
>>> the tool useable for everyone.
>>>
>>> Just because you may choose not to use something yourself is no reason
to
>>> deny other people having access to it. If you want to use AIM instead
>>> of
>>> facebook to talk to your facebook buddies, that's great, but please help
>>> those of us who want the ability to use facebook chat and don't
>>> understand
>>> how to make the chat automatically speak gain more access by signing the
>>> petition which will grant us the kind of access we expect to websites in
>>> the
>>> 21st century.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bryan
>>> Garaventa
>>> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 7:35 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader
>>> users?
>>>
>>> Hi, I thought I'd pass this on since it may be of interest to fellow
>>> screen
>>> reader users.
>>>
>>> Since there really is no reason why Facebook can't add screen reader
>>> accessible functionality to the live chat feature, and it would be nice
>>> to
>>> be able to communicate with family and friends using the same features
>>> that
>>> everyone else uses, I created the fan page at
>>>
>>>
>
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Make-Face-Books-Live-Chat-Accessible-to-Bli
>>> nd-Users/109349762439299?ref=ts
>>>
>>> In the hope that, if enough people become fans of the idea, it will act
>>> as a
>>> petition to get Facebook's attention. So if you use Facebook, and would
>>> like
>>> to see live chat become an accessible feature, please consider becoming
a
>>> fan of the page.
>>>
>>> The UI implementation that I've proposed through the fan page does the
>>> following:
>>> 1) Automatically announces the latest message as soon as it arrives,
>>> regardless where the focus is positioned on the page;
>>> 2) Is fully accessible using JAWS 11 with IE7-8 and Firefox3;
>>> 3) Is fully accessible using NVDA with IE8 and Firefox3;
>>> 4) Can be visually modified using CSS to fit any display without
>>> impairing automatic accessibility.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Bryan
>>>
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